V  K 
1258 

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1     DEPARTMENT  OF  COMMERCE 

OFFICE  OF  THE  SECRETARY 


ADVISORY  CONFERENCE  ON  THE  SUBJECT 
OF  MAKING  PASSENGER  VESSELS  MORE 
SECURE  FROM  DESTRUCTION  BY   FIRE 

* 


HELD  IN  THE 
OFFICE  OF  THE  SECRETARY  OF  COMMERCE 
WASHINGTON,  WEDNESDAY,  MAY  3,  1916 


WASHINGTON 

GOVERNMENT  PRINTING  OFFICE 

1916 


LIST  OF  PERSONS  WHO  ATTENDED  THE  ADVISORY  CONFERENCE. 

Hon.  William  C.  Redfield,  Secretary  of  Commerce  (presiding). 

Hon.  Edwin  F.  Sweet,  Assistant  Secretary  of  Commerce. 

Mr.  E.  C.  Gillette,  Superintendent  of  Naval  Construction,  Bureau  of  Lighthouses^ 
Washington,  D.  C. 

N.  Sumner  Myrick,  Esq.,  Chamber  of  Commerce  of  the  United  States,  Washington,. 
D.  C. 

Hon.  William  B.  Wilson,  Secretary  of  Labor. 

Mr.  James  L.  Ackerson,  Naval  Constructor,  Navy  Department,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Samuel  Gompers,  President,  American  Federation  of  Labor,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Andrew  Furuseth,  President,  Seamen's  Union,  San  Francisco,  Cal. 

Mr.  A.  W.  Goodrich,  Goodrich  Transit  Co.,  Chicago,  111.. 

Mr.  WiLLARD  Thompson,  Vice  President  and  General  Manager,  B.  C.  &  A.  and  M.  D. 
&  V.  R.  R.  Cos.,  Baltimore,  Md, 

Mr.  D.  J.  Callahan,  Washington  &  Norfolk  Steamboat  Co.,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Capt.  A.  N.  McGray,  Neptune  Association,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  F.  L.  Du  Bosque,  Assistant  Engineer,  Pennsylvania  Railroad  Co.,  New  York, 
N.  Y. 

Mr.  Charles  P.  Benns,  Consulting  Engineer,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Stevenson  Taylor,  President,  American  Bureau  of  Shipping,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  William  A.  Dobson,  Naval  Architect,  The  William  Cramp  &  Son  Ship  &  Engine 
Building  Co. ,  Philadelphia,  Pa. 

Mr.  Frank  E.  Kirby,  Naval  Architect,  Detroit,  Mich. 

Mr.  Henry  Leyhe,  Eagle  Packet  Co.,  St.  Louis,  Mo. 

Mr.  T.  F.  Newman,  C.  &  B.  Transit  Co.,  Cleveland,  Ohio. 

Mr,  Warren  T.  Berry,  Superintendent  of  Marine  Construction,  New  England  Steam- 
ship Co.,  Newport,  R.  I. 

Mr.  E.  E.  Olcott,  Vice  President  and  General  Manager,  Hudson  River  Day  Line, 
New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Henry  A.  Magoun,  Vice  President,  New  York  Shipbuilding  Co.,  Camden,  N.  J. 

Mr.  William  T.  Donnelly,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  George  A.  White,  Assistant  General  Manager,  Hudson  River  Day  Line,  New 
York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  E.  C.  Bennett,  Naval  Architect,  Fore  River  Shipbuilding  Corporation,  Quincy, 
Mass. 

Mr.  Edward  F.  Croker,  Ex  Chief,  New  York  Fire  Department,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  William  Gate  wood,  Naval  Architect,  Newport  News  Shipbuilding  &  Dry  Dock 
Co.,  Newport  News,  Va. 

Mr.  C.  H.  Phinney,  Secretary  Inspection  Department,  Factory  Mutual  Fire  Insurance 
Cos.,  Boston,  Mass. 

Mr.  T.  H.  S.  Cone,  Aero  Fire  Alarm  Co.,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Frederic  C.  Mott,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  James  French,  Chief  Surveyor,  Lloyd's  Register  of  Shipping,  New  York,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Robert  V.  La  Dow,  Dahlstrom  Metallic  Door  Co.  (Jamestown,  N.  Y.),  Washing- 
ton, D.  C. 

Capt.  W.  A.  Blair,  General  Manager,  Northern  Steamboat  Co.,  Davenport,  Iowa. 

Mr,  Elliot  H.  Goodwin,  Secretary,  Chamber  of  Commerce  of  the  United  States, 
Washington,  D,  C. 

Mr.  P.  G.  Bulloch,  Art  Metal  Construction  Co.,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Paul  G.  Brock,  Art  Metal  Construction  Co.,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Capt.  G.  W.  Harney,  Supervising  Inspector,  Third  District,  United  States  Steamboat- 
Inspection  Service,  Norfolk,  Va. 

Mr.  E.  H.  Duff,  American  Steamship  Association,  Washington,  D.  C. 

Mr.  J,  Donald  Pryor,  General  Fire  Extinguisher  Co.,  Providence,  R.  I. 

Gen.  George  Uhler,  Supervising  Inspector  General,  Steamboat-Inspection  Service, 
Department  of  Commerce.      , 

(DOC.  COLUi 


ADVISORY  CONFERENCE  ON  THE  SUBJECT  OF 
MAKING  PASSENGER  VESSELS  MORE  SECURE 
FROM  DESTRUCTION  BY  FIRE. 


HELD  IN  THE  OFFICE  OF  THE  SECRETARY  OF  COMMERCE   WASHING. 
TON,  WEDNESDAY,  MAY  3,  1916.  '  ^achixni^ 


MORNING  SESSION  (10  O'CLOCK). 

The  Secretary.  Gentlemen,  it  is  hardly  necessary  to  ask  an  as- 
sembly ol  this  kmd  to  come  to  order.  I  am  sorry  we  have  not  a  beauti- 
ful reception  hall  or  an  auditorium  in  which  to  receive  you  If  we 
were  to  go  out  to  the  Bureau  of  Standards,  we  could  do  it  in  some  fit 
style,  but  here  I  can  only  say  that  the  work  of  the  Department  has 
grown  so  rapidly  that  my  good  associate,  Mr.  Sweet,  has  been  obliged 
to  ^ive  up  his  office  to  clerks  and  we  have  no  room  other  than  this 
available  m  this  building  where  we  can  meet.  I  hope  another  year 
we  may  be  placed  so  that  we  can  receive  you  more  comfortably. 

1  his  is  a  conference  called  without  any  plan  at  all.  We  have  no 
program.  Our  purpose  is  merely  to  lay  before  you  the  reasons  which 
lead  us  to  ask  you  to  be  here  and  then  to  ask  you  to  help  the  Depart- 
ment out  of  your  experience  and  training  to  do  whatever  circum- 
stances may  suggest  to  you. 

We  keep  a  record  of  every  accident  that  occurs  to  vessels.  They 
come  over  my  desk  and  they  are  each  of  them  separately  examined 
into  by  me,  so  far  as  it  is  possible  to  do  so.  One  of  the  things  which 
came  to  my  notice  many  months  ago  was  the  fact  that  the  most  fre- 
quent cause  of  disaster  to  the  vessels  over  which  we  have  to  exercise 
supervision  is  fire— imaccountable  fires,  very  largely.  The  expe- 
rience which  we  thus  have  with  the  merchant  vessels  is  matched  in  a 
measure  by  experience  with  the  hundred  and  odd  vessels  which  we 
operate  ourselves.  We  have  one  fine  ship  which  has  been  on  fire  four 
times.  The  last  time  was  a  week  ago  last  Saturday  morning  when  I 
was  on  board  of  her  myseK. 

+1.^  ^®.®^,K^^%  remind  you  of  what  has  happened.  The  disaster  to 
the  T%voh\n  recent  months,  when  she  was  burned  to  an  empty  shell 
IS  stiil  fresh  in  the  minds  of  most  of  you.  We  have  here  a  record  of  63 
vessels  more  or  less  completely  destroyed  by  fire  within  two  years, 
naany  of  them  quite  small,  most  of  them  when  laid  up,  possibly  some 
of  them  not  wholly  disconnected  with  the  question  of  insurance— we 
don  t  know ;  some  of  them,  unfortunately,  vessels  carrying  a  consid- 
erable number  of  passengers,  and  many  of  them  vessels  in  commission, 
it  was  not  our  thought  to-day  to  deal  so  much  with  the  question  of 
care,  of  nianagement,  for  on  that  we  have  fairly  adequate  authority 
now,  and  I  am  glad  to  say  that  Congress  has  just  given  us  31  additional 

(3) 

051 


inspectors  for  the  purpose  of  a  more  thorough  watch  over  that  par- 
ticular phase  of  the  matter.  But  the  question  of  construction,  the 
question  of  equipment,  is  one  where  we  have  not,  we  think,  either  the 
detailed  knowleage  or  the  authority  of  law  to  deal  with  as  adequately, 
perhaps,  as  we  ought.  Nor  is  it  necessarily  our  purpose  as  a  result  of 
this  conference  to  ask  for  added  lawful  authority.  We  have  no  plan. 
What  we  want  to  do  is  to  be  informed,  to  learn,  to  be  instructed  as  to 
what  is  wise  and  what  is  practicable.  There  is  not  one  of  us,  I  am 
sure,  who  wants  to  have  his  wife  and  child  burned  to  death.  There 
is  not  one  of  us  who  wants  to  have  any  other  man's  wife  and  child 
either  put  to  death  or  put  in  jeopardy.  We  want  to  do  what  is  prac- 
ticable. I  very  strongly  felt,  and  Gen.  Uhler  felt  as  I  did,  and  a  very 
happy  suggestion  from  Mr.  Myrick,  of  the  committee  of  the  Chamber 
of  Commerce  of  the  United  States  on  the  Steamboat-Inspection  Serv- 
ice, came  at  the  same  time  to  bring  the  matter  to  a  focus,  that  we 
ought  at  least  to  have  the  advice  of  thoughtful  and  experienced  men 
on  the  whole  problem  presented  by  the  danger  to  thousands  of  people, 
largely  women  and  children,  and  to  the  crews  of  vessels,  often  con- 
fined in  spaces  from  which  exit  is  not  always  easy  and  rapid.  We 
ought  to  have  the  advice  of  thoughtful  men  as  to  what  is  practicable, 
if  anything,  commercially,  economically,  soundly,  in  dealing  with  this 
matter. 

So  there  are  no  preconceived  notions  nor  purposes  nor  plans.  We 
are  here  and  have  asked  you  to  be  here  that  we  might  learn.  I  think, 
inasmuch  as  the  first 'material  contribution  to  this  matter  in  our 
thought  came  from  Mr.  Myrick,  I  will  ask  him  if  he  will  step  forward 
and  express  his  views  to  the  conferees. 

I  want  to  add  a  word.  Perhaps  you  may  not  all  know  my  friend 
and  colleague.  Secretary  Wilson,  Secretary  of  Labor,  who  has  come 
here  by  invitation  to  hear,  as  I  am  present  to  hear,  and  learn  what 
may  be  developed. 

STATEMENT  OF  N.  SUMNER  MYRICK,  ESQ.,  SPECIAL  COUNSEL  OF 
THE  CHAMBER  OF  COMMERCE  OF  THE  UNITED  STATES,  WASH- 
INGTON, D.  C. 

Gentlemen,  I  take  the  kindness  of  the  Secretary  in  calling  upon 
me  to  speak  to  you  thus  early  in  the  session,  if  indeed  I  should  have 
been  invited  at  all,  as  a  mark  of  his  confidence,  perhaps,  in  the  result 
of  the  investigation  which  it  has  been  my  good  fortune  to  make  on 
behalf  of  the  Chamber  of  Commerce  of  the  United  States  of  the 
Steamboat-Inspection  Service.  Perhaps  I  ought  to  refer  briefly  to 
my  qualifications  as  an  investigator  before  saying  anything  further. 
I  was  bom  at  a  seaport.  My  childhood  and  early  life  were  spent 
about  ships  and  steamboats,  fishermen,  etc.,  and  all  mv  life  I  nave 
been  very  intimately  connected  with  the  matters  in  wnich  you  are 
interested.  When  I  began  the  investigation,  which  I  have  just  con- 
cluded, my  thought  was  very  early  directed  to  this  question  of  fire 
protection  on  passenger  steamboats.  I  have  reached  certain  con- 
clusions which,  by  the  way,  I  am  not  going  to  express  at  this  time 
because  it  is  quite  unnecessary  that  I  shomd;  but  I  feel  and  for  a 
long  time  have  felt  that  something  should  be  done  to  rectify  mistakes 
of  construction  in  respect  of  fire  resistance  that  have  characterized 
the  steamboat  building  of  the  past. 


I  also  feel  that  it  would  be  eminently  unwise,  not  to  say  unfair,  to 
require  steamboat  men  to  make  radical  changes  in  existing  vessels 
that  might  and  probably  would  involve  large  expenditure  of  money, 
because  the  law  and  public  sentiment  have  encouraged  the  con- 
struction of  these  vessels  of  material  and  in  design  as  they  now  exist. 
I  do  feel,  however,  that  something  can  be  done  by  intelligent  coopera- 
tion among  steamboat  men,  designers,  and  builders  to  lessen  very 
greatly  the  fire  hazard  of  steamboats  hereafter  constructed,  and 
modify  to  some  extent  the  fire  hazard  of  those  now  in  service.  It 
was  this  belief  or  feeling  that  led  to  my  suggesting  to  the  Secretary, 
as  he  has  pointed  out,  the  conference  which  we  are  holding  here 
to-day. 

I  have  only  two  or  three  ideas  to  express.  One  is  that  this  con- 
ference ought  to  afford  opportunity  for  individual  views  upon  the 
subject  in  a  town-meeting  way,  and  that  at  the  conclusion  of  the 
conference  a  committee  should  be  appointed  to  take  this  whole  matter 
under  consideration,  give  it  though tiul  attention,  and  report  at  some 
time  in  the  future  their  conclusions.  Having  so  reported,  the  con- 
clusions should  be,  so  far  as  practicable,  embodied  in  the  law,  for 
various  reasons,  and  among  them  this:  I  had  the  pleasure  of  visiting 
in  Chicago  a  comparatively  new  steel  vessel,  a  splendid  type  of  boat 
for  the  service  in  which  she  is  engaged.  I  said  to  the  gentleman 
who  showed  me  over  the  boat:  ^'You  have  spent  a  great  deal  of 
money  on  this  ship ;  turned  out  a  safe  and  beautiful  craft.  Is  it  fair 
that  I  should  be  able  to  go  down  the  Lake  somewhere,  pick  up  a 
rattletrap,  unsafe  boat,  bring  her  here  and  run  her  in  competition 
with  you,  or  should  the  law  be  so  framed  that  everyone  would  be  put 
upon  an  equal  basis,  an  equal  footing?"  That  is  one  reason  why  I 
think  that  whatever  conclusions  this  committee,  if  it  is  appointed, 
arrives  at  should  be  put  into  the  form  of  law,  so  far  as  may  be  practi- 
cable. 

I  make  the  further  suggestion  in  reference  to  the  composition  of 
the  committee,  that  it  be  not  composed  entirely  of  steamboat  men, 
but  that  a  fair  proportion  of  steamboat  men,  a  certain  number  of 
men  from  the  construction  department  of  the  Navy,  and  one  or  two 
men  outside  any  branch  of  the  Government  be  appointed.  I  should 
very  much  hope  that  Dr.  Stratton,  of  the  Bureau  of  Standards,  be 
one  of  the  committee — ^not  that  he  would  contribute  anything  so  far 
as  the  form  of  construction  is  concerned,  although  he  might  oe  able 
to  do  that — ^but  that  he  would  be  able  to  make  valuable  suggestions 
as  to  the  material  that  could  be  employed  in  the  construction  of 
future  steamboats. 

One  fact  that  has  been  impressed  upon  my  mind  during  the  progress 
of  my  investigation  is  this,  that  when  our  modem  passenger  ships 
take  fire  they  burn  with  incredible  rapidity,  as  the  records  show; 
so  rapidly  that,  in  most  cases,  it  has  been  impossible  to  launch  all  the 
boats.  While  it  is  not  practicable,  I  believe,  to  build  an  entirely 
fireproof  vessel — that  is  to  say,  out  of  any  material  with  which  any  of 
us  are  familiar  at  this  time — I  do  believe  it  is  practicable  so  to  build 
these  boats  that  the  progress  of  a  fire  would  be  so  retarded  that  the 
passengers  would  have  a  chance  for  their  lives.  If  it  were  worth 
while,  I  could  give  you  a  ^ood  many  illustrations  of  the  burning  of 
vessels  that  would  emphasize  the  point  that  I  am  now  making. 


I  think,  Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  that  this  is  substantially  all 
that  I  have  to  say  at  this  time.  I  very  much  hope  that  something 
will  come  of  this  conference,  and  I  believe  that  if  you  gentlemen 
approach  the  subject  with  a  determination  to  do  something,  rather 
than  with  the  feeling  that  it  is  desirable  from  your  point  of  view 
to  get  by  as  easily  as  possible,  something  substantial  and  well  worth 
whSc  will  be  accomplished. 

The  Secretary.  Thank  you,  Mr.  Myrick. 

In  pursuing  the  discussion  may  I  ask  that  each  gentleman  who  may 
have  anything  to  say  will  kindly  give  his  name  to  the  stenographer 
as  he  speaks  in  order  that  the  record  may  be  clear.  If  those  who  have 
not  already  given  their  names  to  the  stenographer  or  their  business 
cards  will  kindly  do  so  before  we  adjourn,  it  will  serve  to  make  the 
record  more  complete. 

I  want  to  add  merely  to  what  Mr.  Myrick  has  said  a  suggestion 
as  to  a  principle  which  seems  to  me  to  have  soundness.  The  late 
Edwin  Atkinson,  of  Boston,  had  to  deal,  as  I  am  sure  you  know,  with 
the  most  serious  fire  problem  in  the  country,  the  problem  presented 
by  the  cotton  mill.  He  dealt  with  it  by  a  philosophy  which  by  some 
at  the  time  was  thought  very  unreasonable.  He  laid  down  three 
lilies  for  fire  protection  as  the  president  of  a  fire  insurance  company. 
The  first  rule  was  that  no  fire  had  any  business  to  happen.  The 
second  rule  was  that  if  a  fire  did  happen,  it  had  no  business  to  extend 
very  far.  And  the  third  rule  was  that  if  it  did  extend  very  far,  it 
ought  to  be  put  out.  In  his  point  of  view,  fire  extinguishmg  was 
the  last  and  not  the  first  thing  to  be  looked  at.  The  absolute  pre- 
vention of  fires  was  the  first  thing,  and  the  restriction  of  them  by 
proper  construction  was  the  second. 

I  think  it  is  a  matter  of  history  familiar  to  you  all  with  what  extraor- 
dinary success  that  policy  has  worked  out,  so  that  the  most  inflammable 
of  aU  industrial  plants  is  that  which  has  the  smallest  record  of  fire. 

I  think  there  is  wisdom  in  the  principle.  Now  the  field  is  open. 
We  think  something  should  be  done.  What,  we  do  not  yet  know,  and 
we  welcome  suggestions  from  any  of  you  on  the  subject  as  you  see  it. 

Mr.  Taylor,  as  president  of  the  American  Bureau  of  Shipping,  per- 
haps you  might  speak  to  us. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  STEVENSON  TAYLOR,  PRESIDENT,  AMERICAN 
BUREAU  OF  SHIPPING,  NEW  YORK  CITY. 

Mr.  Secretary,  I  do  not  know  that  I  have  anything  to  say  on  this 
subject  more  than  that  in  my  experience  we  have  endeavored  to  add 
the  very  things  that  you  and  Mr.  Myrick  have  outlined,  and  judging 
from  results  we  have  done  so  with  considerable  success. 

It  goes  without  saying  that  a  fire  should  not  occur  at  aU,  and  the 
other  corollaries  of  Mr.  Atkinson  s  law  foUow  as  a  matter  of  course. 
On  the  other  hand,  there  is  the  practical  side  of  this  question  that 
must  be  considered.  It  is  possible  to  build  an  unsinkable  boat; 
it  is  quite  possible  to  build  a  boat  that  can  not  be  destroyed  by  fire ; 
but  in  going  to  these  extremes  it  is  also  possible  to  build  boats  that 
will  not  be  of  any  service  to  anyone. 

I  read  between  the  lines  that  it  is  your  endeavor,  Mr.  Secretarv, 
and  I  know  it  is  the  endeavor  of  Mr.  Myrick,  that  something  should 
be  done  toward  making  vessels  safer,  particularly  from  danger  by 
fire;  something  that  is  reasonable,  to  use  the  word  made  so  expressive 


by  the  United  States  Supreme  Court.  I  can  assure  you  so  far  as  my 
rather  full  acquaintance  with  shipbuilders  and  shipowners  goes,  that 
all  of  them  will  be  very  glad  to  do  whatever  can  be  done  to  make 
lives  as  well  as  property  safer  on  board  of  their  vessels. 

The  difficulty  will  be  to  make  general  rules  that  will  cover  all  cases, 
for  the  variety  in  the  types  of  boats  used  in  the  business  of  this 
country  is  exceedingly  great.  Take  the  western-river  boats,  for 
example.  They  must  naturally  be  built  particularly  Hght  and  of 
peculiar  construction  throughout  on  account  of  the  lack  of  water  at 
times  to  float  these  boats;  and  I  may  say  there  is  no  better  exhibition 
of  engineering  skill  than  is  shown  in  meeting  the  requirements  of 
the  western-river  boats.  Now,  seagoing,  Sound,  Lake,  and  eastern- 
river  boats  all  differ  materially  from  the  western-river  boats  and  as 
materially  from  each  other,  each  type  having  a  style  and  character 
of  its  own.     No  general  rules  can  be  formulated  to  govern  them  all. 

There  are  many  things  that  can  be  done  to  make  boats  sa-fer  against 
fire.  Some  of  us  have  tried  very  faithfully  to  do  these  things.  Some 
of  the  gentlemen  in  this  room  I  know  have  given  many  hours  of  serious 
thought,  and  others  of  them  have  spent  a  great  deal  of  money  to 
produce  the  desired  result,  and  they  feel  as  I  do  that  the  results  show 
the  advantage  of  their  investigations  and  their  efforts  to  carry  out 
the  desires  expressed  by  you. 

The  suggestion  of  Mr.  Myrick  that  a  committee  should  be  appointed 
is  a  particularly  good  one,  for  this  assembly  is  like  a  town  meeting, 
and  if  every  man  here  had  his  say  in  full  upon  this  subject,  we  would 
probably  get  nowhere;  there  would  be  such  a  diversity  of  ideas  and 
opinions  as  to  what  would  be  the  best  thing  to  do. 

We  are  naturally  inclined  to  look  at  any  question  from  our  own 
personal  standpoint.  I  know  what  is  good  for  the  Long  Island  Sound 
boats,  but  I  am  not  quite  sure  that  I  know  what  is  good  for  a  western- 
river  boat.  I  could  prescribe  something  for  the  steamers  with  which 
I  am  familiar,  but  could  not  prescribe  so  well  for  others. 

I  may  refer  in  a  general  way  to  the  burning  and  reconstruction 
of  the  steamer  Plymouth  of  the  well-known  Fall  River  Line.  This 
line  has  had  but  two  boats  burned  in  its  career  of  69  years.  Both  of 
these,  the  Bristol  and  the  Plymouth,  were  burned  while  laid  up  at 
the  wharf  in  Newport  with  no  passengers  and  but  few  others  on 
board.  The  Plymouth  had  but  two  watchmen,  each  of  whom  had 
passed  the  place  on  fire  at  least  once  and  had  not  noticed  or  reported 
it.  Evidently  they  were  only  intent  on  punching  the  watchman's 
clock,  which  proved  what  I  have  said  as  to  their  passing  the  place 
without  noticing  the  fire. 

When  we  started  to  rebuild  the  Plymouth  the  question  of  making 
her  fireproof  was  uppermost  and  we  went  into  the  matter  very  care- 
fully. We  found  that  the  joiner  work  built  as  usual  weighed  440 
tons  and  the  same  built  of  steel  would  weigh  830  tons.  As  this 
additional  weight  would  cause  an  increase  of  about  14  inches  in  the 
draft  of  water,  setting  aside  other  serious  considerations,  it  is  evident 
that  such  a  reconstruction  was  absolutely  impracticable.  For 
oxample,  seven-eighths-inch  white  pine  is  used  for  joiner  decks  and  a 
steel  deck  of  equal  weight  would  be  but  one-sixteenth  inch  thick. 

The  problems  and  difficulties  encountered  in  building  a  passenger 
boat  like  those  of  the  Fall  River  Line  are  quite  different  from  those 
of  a  simple  ferryboat.     It  has  taken  many  years  to  reach  the  present 


8 

state  of  development,  for  which  the  minds  of  many  men  are  respon- 
sible. The  results  of  construction  and  care  in  operation  have  been 
most  remarkable.  It  is  quite  proper  for  me  to  say  here  that  during 
the  69  years  continuous  running  of  the  Fall  River  Line  but  one  pas- 
senger has  lost  his  life,  and  that  by  being  struck  in  a  collision  in  a 
thick  fog. 

I  can  also  truly  say,  after  35  years  of  experience  with  the  Sound 
lines,  that  the  management  has  always  desired  the  best  in  everything, 
the  matter  of  cost  being  secondary. 

When  the  reconstruction  of  the  Plymouth  was  commenced,  we 
tried  to  make  her  safer  and  better  than  before.     One  of  the  im- 

Erovements  that  occurred  to  me  was  the  placing  of  two  cross-fire 
ulkheads,  with  doors  across  the  passages  in  the  saloon  at  the  ends 
of  the  engine  and  boiler  inclosures — doors  hke  those  used  in  cotton 
mills,  that  could  be  closed  in  case  of  fire.  These  doors  are  not 
absolutely  fireproof,  but  sufficiently  so  to  act  as  a  fire  deterrent,  and 
dividing  as  they  would  the  length  of  the  boat  in  three  parts,  there 
would  not  be  quite  the  same  likelihood  of  the  flames  sweeping  at 
once  the  entire  length  of  the  boat. 

The  question  of  freight  must  also  be  taken  into  consideration,  for 
freight  must  be  carried.  If  a  conflagration  took  place  amidst  the 
freight,  even  an  entire  steel  structure  would  not  stand,  and  the  result, 
as  shown  in  many  instances  of  fire  in  steel  store  or  warehouses,  would 
be  destruction. 

So  the  next  improvement  was  to  cover  the  interior  of  the  freight 
space  with  sheet  steel  fastened  closely  to  stanchions,  facing,  carlins, 
and  imderside  of  deck  over  the  freight  without  air  space. 

Then,  growing  out  of  my  own  experience  in  shops,  I  put  fire 
sprinklers  all  over  the  boat,  following  the  first  system  of  sprinklers 
placed  by  me  on  the  freighter  Pequonnock. 

When  we  built  the  Massachusetts,  Bunker  Hill,  and  Old  Colony  in 
1906,  and  the  Commonwealth  in  1908,  we  used  the  same  precautions 
that  were  used  on  the  Plymouth. 

We  also  used  the  same  system  of  fire-pump  discharges  that  we  had 
used  on  the  Puritan  in  1889,  that  of  having  three  or  four  discharges 
separated  at  the  pump,  carrying  the  lines  forward,  amidship,  and  aft 
so  that  a  fire  occurring  near  one  of  the  fines  and  possibly  destroying 
a  fine  would  not  entirely  incapacitate  the  pump,  for  the  pressure 
could  still  be  kept  up  on  all  of  tne  other  lines. 

For  the  Commonwealth  we  also  considered  wood  that  had  been 
chemically  made  fireproof,  but  found  this  wood  was  not  satisfactory. 
Since  that  time  there  have  been  other  materials  devised  in  the  way 
of  compo  and  asbestos  board  such  as  has  been  used  to  reduce  the 
fire  risk  on  the  steamer  Washington  Irving  by  my  friend,  Mr.  Olcott, 
who  is  present. 

I  need  not  call  attention  to  the  need  of  constant  and  thorough 
inspections  and  driUs  in  the  use  of  all  apparatus  on  vessels,  but  after 
aU,  Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  you  may  take  all  the  care  you  will, 
there  still  remains  to  be  taken  into  consideration  the  hmnan  factor. 
No  line  of  steamers  can  run  forever  without  an  accident  unless  the 
human  factor  is  so  alert,  so  weU  disciplined,  and  so  faithful  that 
nothing  can  happen  without  immediate  discovery,  with  immediate 
action  for  the  best.     Disasters  will,  in  spite  of  us  all,  happen  on  the 


9 

water  as  they  happen  on  land,  though  it  is  our  duty  to  minimize 
them  if  possible. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Olcott,  you  can  speak  to  us,  I  am  sure,  as 
manager  of  a  very  important  passenger  line.  We  shall  be  very  glad 
to  hear  what  you  have  to  say. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  E.  E.  OLCOTT,  REPRESENTING  THE  HUDSON 
RIVER  DAY  LINE,  NEW  YORK  CITY. 

Mr.  Secretary,  there  is  nobody,  as  Mr.  Taylor  has  said,  that  is  more 
interested  in  this  subject  than  we  are  ourselves.  The  wonderful 
record  of  the  Fall  River  Line,  dating  back  before  his  time,  in  trans- 
porting so  many  people  without  the  loss  of  a  life,  speaks  for  itself 
without  any  argument. 

We  have  all  been  pleased,  Mr.  Secretary,  with  your  gracious  recep- 
tion of  us  here  and  with  your  request  that  we  make  suggestions. 
I  am  like  Mr.  Taylor  in  feeling  that  I  have  not  a  great  many  to  make, 
anxious  as  we  are  to  give  the  result  of  all  our  experience.  I  do  not 
know  that  everybody  in  the  room  knows  that  you,  Mr.  Secretary, 
were  once  a  steamboat  man  and  this  connection  with  the  business  in 
early  life  helps  you  to  understand  our  position  now. 

As  for  the  suggestion  of  Mr.  Myrick,  I  think  that  is  excellent.  One 
thing  I  was  pleased  to  have  him  mention  was  the  danger  of  compe- 
tition from  what  he,  not  I,  called  ''rattletraps, '^  because  that  is 
something  which  ought  to  be  safeguarded  by  this  great  Department. 
We  do  not  run  under  any  franchise.  We  can  not  buy  a  right  of  way 
on  the  navigable  waters.  We  are  therefore  in  a  very  different  posi- 
tion from  that  of  a  railroad.  It  has  its  right  of  way,  which  it  has 
acquired,  and  under  the  present  laws  a  road  can  not  be  paralleled 
very  easily  by  another  line.  These  difficulties,  under  which  the  boat 
lines  labor,  should  be  realized  by  the  public. 

Mr.  Taylor  has  also  spoken  of  the  compressed  asbestos  and  pulp 
boards  which  we  used  in  the  construction  of  the  WasJiington  Irving. 

The  Secretary.  Will  you  tell  u^  about  them  ? 

Mr.  Olcott.  Asbestos  is  wholly  noninflammable  but  it  is  very 
heavy  in  weight  and  brittle  so  that  in  the  public  gangways  it  is  not 
as  practicable  as  compressed  paper  pulp  board,  which  is  very  much 
less  inflammable  than  wood.  The  three-sixteenths-inch  asbestos 
boards  were  largely  used  in  the  partitions  in  the  crews'  quarters. 
This  board  being  absolutely  fireproof  is  a  wonderful  safeguard. 

In  our  special  case  we  consider  our  safety  comes  from  the  fact  that 
our  boats  run  in  the  daytime  when  everybody  is  awake,  and  even 
the  least  smeU  of  smoke  would  be  detected  at  once.  We  have  never 
had  a  fire  that  amounted  to  anything  during  the  running  seasons  of 
our  boats.  The  great  thing  in  the  construction  of  the  Hendrick 
Hudson,  the  Washington  Irving,  and  the  Robert  Fulton  was  a  steel 
casing  from  the  hold  to  the  hurricane  deck.  The  gaUey  and  the 
boiler  compartments  are  the  more  dangerous  places  on  shipboard, 
so  we  put  in  a  steel  casing  from  the  hold  to  the  hurricane  deck  so  that 
if  any  fire  should  originate  it  could  not  communicate  with  any  of 
the  woodwork. 

We  had  the  great  pleasure  and  honor  of  a  surprise  visit  from  Super- 
vising Inspector  General  Uhler  some  time  ago,  and  he  did  not  come 
alone.     He  brought  with  him  supervising  inspectors  from  practically 

46281—16 2 


10 

the  whole  country,  who  had  been  attending  a  session  in  New  York, 
and  they  went  over  the  Washington  Irving  from  hold  to  pilot  house. 
We  were  very  glad  to  see  them  and  would  have  welcomed  any  sug- 
gestions they  had  to  offer.  They  expressed  satisfaction  with  all  they 
saw. 

I  want  to  give  credit  to  Mr.  Frank  E.  Kirby,  our  consulting  engi- 
neer, and  who  is  here  to-day,  for  the  many  safeguards  introduced  in 
the  construction  of  the  Washington  Irving,  Ilendrick  Hudson,  and 
Robert  Fulton.  The  last  time  the  steamboat-inspection  laws  were 
extensively  modified,  he,  at  the  request  of  President  Roosevelt, 
recommended  most  of  the  changes  that  were  adopted. 

I  agree  with  Mr.  Taylor,  agam,  in  saying  that  a  town  meeting  is 
not  a  place  at  which  to  arrive  at  practical  solutions  of  any  problems. 
A  committee  of  individuals  will  have  to  sit  and  go  over  the  matter 
in  hand  and  then  suggest  revisions. 

I  repeat  that  we  want  to  do  everything  that  is  practicable  and 
reasonable. 

Our  boats  have  to  be  of  extremely  shallow  draft,  and  it  is  a  good 
deal  of  trouble  to  build  a  boat  of  large  capacity  and  not  have  it  draw 
more  than  8  or  SJ  feet  of  water;  and  so  you  can  not  lay  down  any 
universal  law,  but  we  have  looked  into  every  device  and  we  have 
tried  to  be  as  careful  as  possible.  We  put  in  our  boats  the  Aero  fire 
alarm.  The  essential  feature  of  this  system  is  a  very  fine  tube  of 
copper  filled  with  air.  A  very  little  increase  of  temperature  will 
expand  the  air  in  this  small  tube  and  send  in  the  alarm.  We  have 
never  had  a  fire  so  as  to  test  it  in  that  way,  but  we  are  experimenting 
all  the  time.  Even  holding  a  burning  match  alongside  a  little  piece 
of  the  tube  will  set  off  the  alarm. 

One  source  of  danger  which  I  think  is  worth  mentioning  in  this 
connection  is  the  miserable,  deplorable  cigarette.  If  people  would 
stop  smoking  the  cigarette,  our  risk  would  be  reduced.  A  cigarette 
smoker  is  careless.  It  is  astonishing  how  long  a  cigarette  butt  will 
smolder,  and  if  it  falls  into  inflammable  matter  it  is  easy  to  make  a 
fire. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Olcott,  was  the  use  of  fiber  and  asbestos  on 
your  steamers  made  with  the  definite  idea  of  fire  restriction  ? 

Mr.  Olcott.  Oh,  yes.     We  experimented  with  lots  of  things. 

The  Secretary.  Have  you  attempted  to  do  anything  in  the  way 
of  doors  such  as  Mr.  Taylor  has  described  ? 

Mr.  Olcott.  No.  I  nave  looked  into  that  matter.  One  objection 
to  them  is  that  they  are  heavy.  Our  instructions  are  to  stop  the 
boat  if  a  fire  starts.  Of  course,  we  are  scarcely  ever  more  than  a 
half  mile  from  shore,  and  we  have  long  gangplanks  which  in  most 
cases  in  the  Hudson  River  would  be  long  enough  to  land  the  passengers 
on  the  bank  or  in  water  of  wading  depth,  on  account  of  the  shaUow 
draft  of  our  boats. 

The  Secretary.  If  you  were  building  a  new  boat  to-day,  with  all 
you  know,  what  would  you  do  that  you  have  not  done  ?  Pardon  my 
asking  the  question. 

Mr.  Olcott.  Of  course,  I  am  glad  to  answer  any  question  you 
desire  to  ask.  I  can  not  think  of  any  differences  or  changes  I  would 
make.  We  are  rather  afraid  that  bulkhead  doors  would  be  a  source 
of  danger  rather  than  protection,  where  we  carry  so  many  people,  in 
preventing  them  from  leaving  the  boat  in  case  of  an  emergency.  In 
freight  spaces  they  might  be  put  in  to  advantage,  but  I  do  not  think. 


n 

in  the  case  of  our  day  boats,  that  they  are  necessary.  We  carry  no 
freight  and  have  no  inflammable  cargo,  so  I  do  not  think  bulkhead 
doors  would  be  of  much  avail.  We  considered  them  in  building  our 
last  boat,  the  WasJiington  Irving,  which  came  out  in  1913,  but  decided 
against  them. 

We  have  no  cargo  space  at  all,  and  have  great  facilities  by  broad 
stairways  and  broad  gangplanks  for  unloading  our  passengers.  We 
ordinarily,  at  our  tw^o  principal  New  York  landings.  Forty-second 
Street  and  One  hundred  and  twenty-ninth  Street,  unload  250  people 
a  minute.  If  there  was  any  haste,  we  could  unload  many  more  than 
that.  Three  gangplanks,  each  6  feet  wide,  are  used  at  a  time.  We 
tie  up  as  near  as  we  can  at  all  our  piers  and  adjust  the  gangway  drop 
so  we  accommodate  ourselves  to  the  conditions  of  the  tide;  so  the 
gangplank  is  nearly  level,  and  that  is  a  big  help.  We  make  quick 
lanaings,  as  we  have  seven  intermediate  landings  between  New  York 
and  Albany,  and  in  many  places  we  take  on  hundreds  of  passengers, 
to  say  notning  of  their  trunks. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Kirby,  we  would  be  very  glad  to  have  a  word 
or  two  from  you,  and  I  want  to  ask  you  a  question  or  two  at  your  con- 
venience. 

STATEMENT    OF   MR.    FRANK   E.    KIRBY,    NAVAL    ARCHITECT, 

DETROIT,  MICH. 

Mr.  Secretary,  at  first  thought  one  feels  that  an  all-metal  or  steel 
structure  would  be  an  ideal  fireproof  building,  and  yet  it  is  the  uni- 
versal practice  that  m  all  fireproof  buildings  on  land  no  metal  or  steel 
work  snail  be  exposed  where  fire  could  reach  it.  It  is,  therefore, 
protected  or  fireproofed,  as  it  is  called,  by  tile  or  concrete  covering. 
An  example  of  such  a  structure  was  the  Iroquois  Theater,  located  in 
the  city  of  Chicago,  which  burned  in  broad  daylight  during  a  matinee 
performance,  resulting  in  a  greater  loss  of  life  in  proportion  to  those 
present  than  on  the  steamboat  General  Slocum. 

I  was  in  the  city  of  Augusta,  Ga.,  a  few  days  after  the  great  fire 
which  destroyed  over  a  hundred  acres  of  buddmgs.  I  examined  the 
skyscrapers  built  on  the  latest  up-to-date  j)lan  of  fireproof  construc- 
tion. The  largest  one  was  a  new  budding  just  about  completed  but 
unoccupied.  There  was  some  scaffolding  m  the  building  when  the 
fire  occurred.  The  blackened  and  scorched  walls,  the  spalled  trim 
around  the  doors  and  windows  showed  plainly  that  human  life  coidd 
not  have  survived  in  the  building.  This  leads  one  to  wonder  how 
much  protection  these  structures  afford  and  what  is  the  real  hazard 
from  fire. 

Because  there  are  more  structures  on  land  than  on  water,  and 
therefore  more  danger  from  fire,  more  thought  by  more  people  has 
been  given  to  the  matter  of  fireproof  construction  and  fireproofing. 

I  have  not  much  solicitation  about  the  fire 'hazard  on  a  modem 
excursion  steamer — a  boat  without  sleeping  accommodations  for 
passengers,  and  not  carrying  cargo — ^having  a  steel  hull  with  steel 
mclosm*es  around  stacks,  engine  and  galley  casing,  and  vents.  The 
inclosures  should  be  open  at  the  top.  I  mention  this  point  because 
I  learned  of  a  case  only  a  day  or  two  ago  where,  owing  to  closed  top, 
the  firemen  were  driven  out  of  the  fireroom,  resulting  in  failure  of 
steam  pressure  and  destruction  of  the  ship. 

The  Secretary.  Are  you  speaking  of  any  specific  boat  ? 


12 

Mr.  KiRBY.  Excursion  boats  at  Detroit,  Buffalo,  and  on  the  Hudson 
River. 

The  Secretary.  The  Seeandheef 

Mr.  KiRBY.  That  is  a  different  type  of  boat.  I  will  touch  on  that 
in  a  moment. 

I  confess  I  have  most  faith  in  proper  personal  management  of  ships 
for  fire  protection.  When  it  comes  to  a  boat  carrying  merchandise 
cargo  on  the  main  deck  immediately  under  the  cabins,  particularly 
night  boats,  that  is  a  matter  for  more  serious  consideration.  There 
are  a  great  number  of  ships  of  that  type.  I  have  two  in  mind  where 
the  owners  were  particularly  solicitous  that  they  be  made  as  fireproof 
as  possible.  The  plan  followed  was  to  make  the  hull  and  all  work 
below  main  deck  of  steel,  even  the  bunks  for  the  crew  and  bulkheads 
dividing  the  crew's  quarters;  in  fact,  everything  below  deck.  All 
inclosures  on  main  deck,  stack  and  engine  casing,  galley  and  all  vents, 
of  steel  extending  well  above  the  upper  deck.  Store  and  linen  rooms 
on  all  decks,  of  steel  or  fireproofed  wood.  Skylight  sash  of  steel,  with 
wired  glass.  When  it  came  to  the  consideration  of  the  promenade 
deck,  which  is  immediately  over  the  cargo,  it  was  first  designed  to  be 
of  steel,  but  on  account  of  the  difficulty  of  fireproofing,  that  plan  was 
abandoned  and  finally  made  of  wood  and  fireproofed  on  the  underside 
with  asbestos  boards  and  sheathed  with  galvanized  iron,  care  being 
taken  to  have  no  fastenings  through  the  deck.  A  model  section  of 
this  deck  construction  was  first  made  and  arranged  to  form  the  top 
of  a  furnace,  having  side  walls  of  brick.  This  was  fired  with  pine 
wood.  After  burning  an  hour,  though  quite  hot  on  top,  it  was  an 
efficient  protection  against  the  fire. 

The  Secretary.  How  thick  was  that  ? 

Mr.  KiRBY.  An  inch  thick.  The  carlings  were  3  inches  by  5.  We 
were  careful  to  have  no  fastening  through  the  deck,  but  instead  all 
fastenings  were  horizontal  through  the  carlings.  This  prevented 
pulling  under  the  effect  of  the  heat. 

The  Secretary.  Is  not  that  a  lighter  modification  of  modern  mill 
construction  ? 

Mr.  KiRBY.  I  do  not  know  much  about  mills. 

The  Secretary.  Capt.  Phinney. 

Capt.  Phinney.  Where  the  mill  construction  is  the  main  feature 
they  use  larger  members,  12  by  16  for  beams  and  3  by  4  inch  plank. 
The  theory  is  that  while  you  can  kindle  a  fire  in  your  fireplace  very 
easily  with  small  pieces,  you  find  it  very  difficult  to  kindle  it  with 
logs  of  wood. 

Mr.  KiRBY.  We  have  to  rely  upon  a  different  principle.  We  must 
keep  the  fire  away  from  the  thin  wood.  The  promenade  decks  of 
the  steamers  just  described  are  supported  by  pillars  of  solid  round 
bars,  which  withstand  fire  better  than  tubes.  The  whole  of  this 
cargo  space  is  provided  with  sprinklers  and  is  also  divided  at  the 
engine  room  about  amidship  with  steel  rolling  shutters  and  the  saloon 
decks  are  also  divided  into  sections  by  fireproof  doors  to  segregate  a 
fire  if  forward  or  aft.  The  sprinkler  system  is  also  extended  in  other 
parts  of  the  ship,  both  above  and  below^  the  main  deck.  In  addition, 
the  ships  are  fitted  throughout  with  the  Aero  Fire  Alarm  system 
with  indicators  in  the  engine  room  and  pilot  house. 

The  Secretary.     Have  there  been  any  fires  on  board  those  vessels  ? 


13 

Mr.  KiRBY.  Not  on  those  particular  vessels,  but  it  is  quite  usual 
to  have  fires  on  steamers  during  construction,  there  bemg  aU  sorts  of 
tinkers  aboard — plumbers,  iron  workers,  joiners,  and  people  who 
are  likely  to  make  fire.     I  only  mention  this  as  my  own  experience. 

The  Secretary.  What  would  you  do  in  the  light  of  your  present 
knowledge,  Mr.  Kirby,  that  you  have  never  done  in  the  way  of  fire 
restricting  or  in  the  way  of  fireproof  construction  ? 

Mr.  Kirby.  In  regard  to  that  matter,  I  have  not  considered  the 
subject  lately  because,  notwithstanding  the  greatest  boom  in  ship- 
building ever  known  on  the  Great  Lakes,  there  is  not  a  single  passen- 
ger steamer  building  and  there  has  not  even  been  a  single  inquiry 
for  one.  That  being  the  situation  now,  I  have  not  to  bother  about 
fireproofing  or  anything  else. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Kirby,  have  you  made  any  mquiry  or  had 
anything  to  do  with  the  process  of  fireproofing  wood  as  carried  on 
by  the  Forest  Products  Laboratory  of  the  Department  of  Agricul- 
ture at  Madison,  Wis  ? 

Mr.  Kirby.  I  can  not  say  I  have;  but  I  have  had  samples,  of 
course,  of  fireproof  wood  sent  to  me  by  manufacturers  at  different 
times.     I  have  tested  it  in  an  open  fire  and  under  similar  conditions. 

The  Secretary.  Of  course  the  Forest  Products  Laboratory  is  not 
interested  in  any  particular  manufacturer.  They  have  achieved 
some  rather  wonderful  results  with  fireproof  wood.  For  instance,  I 
have  seen  wooden  furniture  which  has  steod  fire  at  1,000  degrees 
without  material  injury.  They  have  studied  the  matter  through  a 
long  period,  with  some  very  interesting  results.  I  wondered  if  the 
matter  had  been  brought  to  your  attention  at  aU. 

Mr.  Kirby.  No,  sir;  it  had  not. 

The  Secretary.     I  am  rather  hopeful  of  somethmg  of  that  kind. 

Mr.  Kirby.  I  had  hoped  that  some  process  would  be  found  to  be 
practicable. 

The  Secretary.  I  think  it  would  be  of  interest  to  you  to  inquire 
of  Mr.  Weiss,  the  director  of  that  laboratory 

Mr.  Kirby.  I  certainly  will  do  it. 

The  Secretary  (continuing).  To  see  what  they  have  actually  done. 
They  have  built  a  cabin  of  considerable  size,  fully  furnished  with  desk 
and  office  furniture  complete,  and  then  they  burned  it  up.  Then  they 
built  the  cabin  over  again  with  fireproof  wood  and  they  could  not 
burn  it  up.  Then  they  built  it  over  again  with  fireproof  wood  and 
put  in  some  furniture  that  was  not  fireproof,  which  furniture  burned. 
They  have  a  splendid  moving  picture  of  those  experiments. 

Mr.  Olcott.  May  I  ask,  Mr.  Kirby,  about  these  bulkhead  doors 
he  spoke  of,  whether  he  thinks  the  point  that  Mr.  Taylor  made  that 
they  might  prevent  passengers  from  leaving,  might  not  show  that 
they  are  not  necessary  on  a  passenger  boat? 

Mr.  Kirby.  I  have  given  some  consideration  to  that,  as  Mr.  Olcott 
said.  I  am  the  responsible  designer  for  his  steamboats.  I  had  con- 
sidered that  matter.  I  felt  that  the  free  movement  of  passengers 
was  more  important.  Of  course  you  understand  those  are  day  boats 
and  there  are  people  all  over  them.  I  am  not  solicitous  about  danger 
of  fire  on  that  type  of  steamboats  compared  to  those  boats  that 
carry  cargo. 

The  Secretary.  I  am  interested,  gentlemen,  in  what  Mr.  Olcott 
said  about  the  effects  of  this  fiber  board  in  resisting  fire.     I  remember 


14 

very  well  when  a  large  paper  mill  near  my  home  burned,  burned 
completely.  There  were  stacks  of  the  paper  in  the  mill  in  various 
places.  What  they  did  with  those  stacks  after  the  mill  was  destroyed 
was  to  trim  off  2  or  3  inches  of  the  edge  and  sell  them  as  perfectly 
good  paper.  It  was  almost  entirely  undamaged  except  for  an  inch 
or  two  at  the  edge. 

I  want  to  just  mention  two  causes  of  fires  that  we  have  had  in  our 
Department  here  within  a  month,  and  then  I  will  ask  Mr.  Gatewood 
to  speak  to  us,  for  I  believe  he  had  the  designing  of  a  vessel  with 
steel  upper  construction.  We  have  had  three  fires  on  one  vessel 
arising  from  short-circuiting  electric  wires  built  12  years  ago,  in 
wooden  tubes,  wooden  coverings.  Naturally  we  took  that  all  out 
and  put  in  steel  tubing.  Another  cause  of  fire  was  one  in  which  the 
bunkers  lay  immediately  adjoining  the  fireroom,  which  was  rather 
warm.  A  certain  grade  of  soft  coal  in  those  bunkers  (although  there 
was  a  steel  partition  between  the  two)  ignited  at  the  base  of  the 
bunker  from  the  heat  transmitted  through  the  steel  plating,  and  we 
found  it  necessary  to  put  in  an  air  space  there  to  prevent  the  trans- 
mission of  heat  through  that  plate.  That  was  sufficient  to  set  the 
coal  on  fire  and  obliged  us  to  throw  out  all  the  coal  from  the  bunkers. 

Mr.  Kirby,  did  you  wish  to  say  something  ? 

Mr.  Kirby.  The  most  serious  fire  we  ever  had  on  a  new  vessel  was 
the  City  of  Cleveland,  Third.  She  was  partly  constructed.  I  do  not 
mean  to  say  that  she  was  «,  steamboat.  She  was  building.  The  sash 
were  not  in  the  windows.  She  had  several  piles  of  this  fiber  board 
on  her  decks,  and  after  the  fire  had  burned  down  (that  stuff  had 
dropped  through  to  the  main  deck)  we  trimmed  off  the  edges  and 
used  the  rest  of  it.  On  many  steamboats  aU  of  the  panel  work 
around  the  saloon  is  made  of  that  material,  the  panels  of  the  doors 
as  well  as  of  the  staterooms. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Gatewood,  you  are  connected  with  the  New- 
port News  Shipbuilding  &  Dry  Dock  Co.  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  Will  you  teU  what  your  experience  has  been  in 
this  connection  ? 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  WILLIAM  GATEWOOD,  NAVAL  ARCHITECT, 
NEWPORT  NEWS  SHIPBUILDING  &  DRY  DOCK  CO.,  NEWPORT 
NEWS,  VA. 

Mr.  Secretarv,  it  has  been  some  1 1  years  ago  now  since  we  started  the 
construction  of  the  Jamestown,  a  vessel  intended  to  ply  on  the  Potomac 
River.  At  that  time  we  felt  that  about  the  onlv  material  which  was 
fireproof  was  steel,  and  we  used  as  much  steel  in  the  construction 
of  the  vessel  as  we  found  we  were  able  to  use.  The  vessel  weighed 
about  10  per  cent  more  on  account  of  the  steel  we  did  use.  We  were 
not  very  fimited  in  draft  and  the  vessel  was  able  to  stand  that  addi- 
tional weight.  The  boat  was  comparatively  small,  and  10  per  cent 
on  a  small  boat  is  not  as  great  as  on  a  large  boat.  We  did  not  succeed 
in  getting  a  boat  which  was  what  could  properly  be  described  as 
fireproof.  We  experimented  with  various  materials,  especially  with 
steel,  and  were  unable  to  provide  any  material  which  would  serve  the 
purpose  of  passenger  decks,  so  that  we  were  forced  to  use  wood  decks. 
We  cased  them  on  the  underside  with  sheet  steel,  but  we  were  unable 
to  protect  the  upper  surface  properly.     We  tried  rubber  tiling  on  the 


15 

weather  deck.  We  found  it  would  not  stand  the  variations  of  tem- 
perature and  extremes  of  weather,  so  that  the  tiUng  had  to  be  removed 
from  the  weather  deck.  So  while  the  boat  was  perhaps  somewhat 
safer  from  fire  than  vessels  previously  built,  it  could  hardly  be  ranked 
as  a  strictly  fireproof  vessel. 

The  Secretary.  Would  you  repeat  the  construction  you  then 
used  in  any  other  vessel  if  you  were  given  liberty  in  the  matter  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Well,  we  shipbuilders  usually  try  to  meet  the 
requirements  of  our  clients.  If  a  shipowner  should  come  to  us  and 
ask  us  to  build  him  a  vessel  of  a  certain  type,  we  would  endeavor  to 
do  it.  While  we  have  some  ideas  of  our  own,  yet  we  feel  that  our 
main  vocation  is  to  build  ships  for  owners,  and  that  it  is  the  owners' 
privilege  to  specify  the  kind  of  ship  that  they  want,  understanding 
that  they  perhaps  know  the  details  of  their  business  and  their  re- 
quirements better  than  we  do. 

The  Secretary.  But  if  a  shipowner  asked  your  advice,  what 
would  you  give  him  in  the  way  of  advice  as  a  result  of  your  experi- 
ence with  the  Jamestown'^. 

Mr.  Gatewood.  If  he  was  willing  to  put  up  the  additional  money, 
we  would  tell  him  that  we  could  give  him  the  measure  of  safety  which 
we  had  been  able  to  accomplish  on  the  Jamestown. 

The  Secretary.  Could  you  better  it  from  your  present  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Since  the  days  of  the  Jamestown  we  have  not  built 
any  excursion  steamers  and  only  a  few  river  steamers  of  any  kind — 
only  one,  I  think — ^so  that  our  experience  has  gone  rather  along  the 
line  of  other  craft  since  those  days.  To  my  present  knowledge  we 
have  no  material  which  is  strictly  fireproof  and  which  is  adaptable 
to  the  upper  works  of  our  light  river  steamers.  If  anything  has  been 
brought  out  which  is  entirely  suitable  for  the  purpose,  we  are  not 
acquainted  with  it.  We  have  used  materials  on  vessels  which  have 
been  of  the  nature  of  fireproof  material. 

The  Secretary.  Such  as 

Mr.  Gatewood.  WeU,  we  have  used  asbestos  board  and  fiber 
boards  of  one  kind  or  another,  but  it  is  difficult  to  make  them  serve 
the  purpose  of  more  than  removing  a  certain  amount  of  more  inflam- 
mable material  rather  than  to  make  them  real  fireproof  screens. 

The  Secretary.  Is  it  your  opinion,  if  I  understand  you  correctly, 
Mr.  Gatewood,  that  something  is  possible  in  the  way  of  fire  restric- 
tion rather  than  in  the  way  of  fireproofing  in  the  strict  sense  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Mr.  Secretary,  it  is  of  course  well  known  that  if 
you  can  limit  the  amount  of  wood  and  replace  it  by  something  which 
will  not  itself  add  to  the  flame,  you  are  accomplishing  something 
along  that  line. 

The  Secretary.  You  have  heard  the  suggestions  that  have  been 
made  as  to  the  practice  with  regard  to  bulkheads  and  to  what  we 
may  caU  fire  screens.     What  is  your  view  on  that  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  I  rather  think  that  for  seagoing  vessels  where  the 
vessels  are  out  of  reach  of  land  some  means  of  preventing  a  fire  from 
spreading  would  be  an  eminently  useful  thing. 

The  Secretary.  But  for  river  vessels  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  For  river  vessels  I  rather  think  with  Mr.  Taylor 
that  it  would  prevent  the  proper  taking  care  of  a  large  number  of 
passengers  by  separating  them  and  preventing  access  to  parts  of  the 


16 

vessel;  and  the  disadvantage  would  more  than  offset  the  advant- 
age that  would  be  gained  by  the  use  of  the  screens.  I  do  not 
know  that  that  would  apply  as  strongly  to  the  night  vessels.  I  under- 
stand that  the  experience  of  the  Fall  River  Line  has  not  shown  any 
disadvantage  in  the  use  of  the  fire  screens,  which  they  have  installed 
on  their  later  vessels;  but  in  that,  of  course,  I  am  only  speaking  from 
hearsay. 

The  Secretary.  Is  it  your  experience,  Mr.  Gatewood,  that  owners 
call  upon  you  for  a  less  safe  vessel  than  you  would  yourself  build  for 
the  purpose  intended  if  you  were  given  permission  so  to  do? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  No  ;  I  would  not  Mke  to  make  that  statement. 

The  Secretary.  I  do  not  mean  it  as  a  general  statement  but  is  it 
so  sometimes  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Well,  of  course,  Mr.  Secretary,  you  know  that 
there  are  all  sorts  of  people  in  the  world  and  that  we  each  one  of  us 
try  to  Hve  up  to  our  hghts.  Some  owners  know  tbeir  particular  busi- 
ness, know  they  have  not  had  trouble  with  certain  vessels,  and  they 
therefore  can  not  see  the  use  of  spending  more  money  and  of  making 
departures  from  their  present  practice. 

The  Secretary.  Would  you  mean  by  that,  that  having  had  no  fire 
they  did  not  see  the  necessity  of  preventing  one  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Well,  very  much  along  that  line,  yes.  If  there 
were  no  fires,  people  would  not  bother  about  fireproof  construction. 
It  is  because  fires  do  occur  that  people  look  out  for  them,  within  the 
limitations  of  their  business. 

The  Secretary.  Can  you  offer  any  suggestion,  Mr.  Gatewood, 
referring  to  excursion  and  passenger  steamers,  whether  day  or  night, 
and  to  steamers  on  bays  and  lakes  and  rivers,  which  would  in  your 
judgment  generally  better  safeguard  them  against  fire  by  construction  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  If  you  have  exposed  woodwork  in  a  vessel  and  are 
able  to  case  it  with  something  which  would  prevent  flames  from 
reaching  it,  you  will  probably  have  offered  a  safeguard  against  fire. 

The  Secretary.  To  what  particular  portion  of  the  vessel's  con- 
struction do  you  now  refer? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  To  any  part  at  aU.  For  instance,  on  combined 
passenger  and  freight  vessels  it  would  appear  that  there  may  be 
danger  from  fire  from  the  freight.  In  such  case  the  freight  could  be 
separated  from  the  rest  of  the  vessel,  if  it  is  feasible  to  do  so,  by 
something  which  will  not  readily  transmit  the  flame.  Of  course,  on 
those  steamers  which  load  one  day  and  unload  the  next,  danger  from 
fire  from  freight  is  very  much  reduced,  in  my  opinion,  from  those 
which  keep  the  freight  on  board  for  long  periods  of  time,  just  as  you 
mentioned  about  the  coal  in  the  bunkers.  If  the  coal  in  the  bunkers 
is  continually  renewed,  I  think  the  danger  from  it  is  very  much 
reduced.  So  that  you  can  have  conditions  fairly  safe  for  vessels 
which  load  one  day  and  unload  the  next  which  do  not  apply  to  sea- 
going craft  where  the  cargo  is  confined  for  days. 

Let  me  add  that  while  accidents  by  fire  are  more  freauent  on  vessels 
at  dock  than  while  under  way,  it  would  seem  that  furtner  precautions 
could  be  taken  to  prevent  the  starting  and  spread  of  fires  than  are 
taken  on  the  average  vessel.  Completely  inclosing  the  freight  spaces 
by  steel,  including  steel  covers  for  hatches  and  ventilators,  would 
seem  proper  on  vessels  carrying  any  considerable  number  of  pas- 
sengers.   The  elimination  of  a  large  quantity  of  wood  and  other 


17 

combustible  material  from  passenger  quarters  can  be  made  in  many 
vessels  at  small  first  cost,  and  in  some  vessels  at  a  saving  in  cost.  The 
traveling  public  which  approves  of  steel  railroad  coaches  will  prob- 
ably offer  no  objection  to  greater  simplicity  on  vessels  if  it  is  accom- 
panied by  an  assurance  of  increased  safety. 

The  Secretary.  Have  you  had  any  experience  with  sprinkler  sys- 
tems on  vessels  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  No,  sir;  we  have  had  almost  none. 

The  Secretary.  You  have  not  installed  any  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  No,  sir;  so  far  as  I  know,  we  have  not. 

The  Secretary.  Is  there  anybody  present  who  wishes  to  ask  Mr. 
Gatewood  any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Mr.  Gatewood,  do  you  think  it  would  be  practical 
to  fit  a  water  screen  instead  of  a  steel  divisional  bulkhead  ? 

Mr.  Gatewood.  I  have  never  had  anything  to  do  with  a  water 
screen. 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  am  somewhat  in  sympathy  with  Mr.  Stevenson 
Taylor's  remarks.  The  divisional  bulkhead  would  not,  however,  be 
an  element  of  safety  in  all  cases.  It  would  be  an  advantage  on 
ocean-going  passenger  vessels  where  the  design  is  so  different  from 
that  of  Sound  and  river  steamers,  but  in  the  latter  I  believe  the 
divisional  bulkheads  would  seriously  incommode  the  movement  and 
handling  of  passengers.  In  place  of  these  steel  divisional  bulkheads 
I  inquire  whether  a  water  screen  or  curtain  would  not  be  a  good 
proposition;  that  is,  it  would  isolate  certain  portions  of  the  boat  in 
case  of  fire  and  yet  allow  passengers  and  crew  to  go  backward  and 
forward. 

Mr.  Gatewood.  Do  you  speak  of  a  perforated  pipe  in  case  of  fire  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes. 

Mr.  Gatewood.  I  think  there  is  such  a  system  in  use  on  the  exterior 
of  buildings  for  protecting  them. 

Capt.  Phinney.  It  is  very  common  now  to  have  that  safeguard 
against  fire  and  up  to  a  certain  limit  it  works  weU,  but  with  a  very 
hot  fire  it  is  not  a  complete  success. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Do  you  think  it  keeps  sparks  from  flying? 

Capt.  Phinney.  No  doubt  it  would  prevent  sparks  from  going 
through.  The  great  difficulty  we  have  is  to  make  it  perfect.  Some 
of  the  openings  will  get  clogged  up  and  you  will  get  a  hole  through 
your  screen  at  the  worst  place  in  the  fire.  They  are  a  help,  but  we 
do  not  think  a  prevention. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Mention  has  been  made  of  the  use  of  fiber  board. 
At  the  Fore  River  Shipbuilding  Corporation  we  used  a  lot  of  this  class 
of  material  in  connection  with  the  Argentine  battleships  we  built.  The 
specifications  for  those  vessels  recjuired  that  all  staterooms  be  paneled, 
while  the  extent  of  the  furnishings  were  luxurious  when  compared 
with  those  installed  in  war  vessels  of  other  navies,  and  the  material 
composing  the  paneled  bulkheads  was  required  to  be  at  least  fire 
resisting.  We  made  a  number  of  experiments  with  various  patented 
^'boards"  and  found  the  most  satisfactory,  from  a  fire-retarding  view, 
was  one  made  almost  entirely  of  asbestos.  The  stateroom  bulkheads 
proper  were  constructed  of  steel  with  metal  furring  each  side  to  which 
were  fastened  the  asbestos  boards  by  metal  strips  along  seams,  giving 
the  bulkhead  a  large  paneled  appearance.     Due  to  the  furring  pieces 

46281—16 3 


18 

between  bulkhead  and  asbestos  board  there  was  an  air  space.  We 
believe  this  construction  of  bulkheads  made  a  very  effective  fire 
retarder,  but  of  course  it  was  expensive. 

The  Secretary.  How  was  it  as  to  weight  ? 
"  Mr.  Bennett.  It  was  somewhat  heavy.     If  I  remember  rightly, 
about  3  pounds  per  square  foot. 

The  Secretary.  What  thickness  did  you  use  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Three-eighths  of  an  inch  for  the  asbestos  board  ? 

The  Secretary.  How  frequently  was  it  supported  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  About  every  30  inches.  We  had  to  support  it  so 
that  if  a  man  fell  against  it,  it  would  not  break. 

The  Secretary.  What  was  the  width  of  the  air  space  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  varied  with  structural  conditions,  but  generally 
it  was  about  a  quarter  of  an  inch,  or,  in  other  words,  the  thickness  of 
the  metal  furring. 

The  Secretary.  Would  this  '^board"  take  a  finish? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes;  it  took  paint  very  readily. 

The  Secretary.  It  was  an  interior  wall  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  It  was  the  interior  wall  of  each  of  the  officers' 
staterooms.  Even  though  they  removed  the  major  portion  of  the 
wood  furniture,  before  going  into  action,  yet  there  was  a  certain 
amount  which  had  to  remain  for  everyday  accommodation  and  which 
would  be  Mable  to  catch  fire  or  smolder  and  generate  smoke.  The 
Argentine  Government  desired  to  guard  against  that,  and  we  made 
each  cabin  a  more  or  less  isolated  compartment,  so  that  no  fire  could 
spread. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Bennett,  suppose  you  had  a  free  hand,  and 
that  I  came  to  you  and  said,  '*We  want  the  very  last  word  in  the 
way  of  precautions  against  fire" — we  wiU  not  use  the  word  ''fire- 
proof" because  we  wiU  aU  agree  that  metal  will  bum.  What  would 
you  recommend  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  On  passenger  vessels  of  the  "Sound"  and  "river" 
design,  I  should  be  inclined  to  suggest  a  water  system — a  sprinkling 
system. 

The  Secretary.  You  mean  a  sprinkler  system  with  water  heads 
at  various  places  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Yes;  in  passages  and  also  in  main  living  rooms; 
that  is,  the  rooms  where  a  number  of  people  congregate.  There  is 
always  a  lot  of  furniture  there  that  is  combustible.  Of  course  the 
arrangement  and  number  of  sprinkler  heads  would  depend  entirely 
on  the  design  of  the  vessel. 

The  Secretary.  Now,  to  go  into  details:  Would  you  use  a  wet- 
pipe  system  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Either  wet  or  dry,  preferably  "wet"  and  automatic, 
arranged  to  be  under  pressure  from  a  tank  on  the  topmost  deck. 

The  Secretary.  Would  you  be  hmited  by  the  weight  and  height 
of  the  tank  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Not  by  the  size  of  the  tank  or  tanks  I  have  in 
mind. 

The  Secretary.  How  much  water  would  you  have  to  carry  in 
your  tank  ^ 

Mr.  Bennett.  Sufficient  only  for  the  automatic  sprinkler  heads  to 
keep  going  until  the  steam  fire  pump  could  be  put  into  operation. 
In  other  words,  the  tank  would  act  as  a  reserve  or  ready  supply. 


19 

The  Secretary.  How  long  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Perhaps  5  or  10  minutes. 

The  Secretary.  How  much  water  would  you  have  to  carry  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  That  I  can  not  say  offhand,  but  the  little  revolving 
sprinklers  I  have  in  mind  would  not  use  up  a  great  amount  of  water 
before  the  fire  pump  was  started. 

The  Secretary.  Have  you  ever  given  thought  to  the  question 
of  the  weight  and  location  of  this  tank  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Not  seriously.  At  present,  in  many  instances,  we 
arrange  gravity  tanks  on  the  topmost  deck  for  fresh  water  and 
sanitary  purposes  and  these  tanks  run  up  to  500  or  600  gallons 
capacity,  and  I  see  no  reason  why  the  present  sanitary  tanks  could 
not  be  piped  up  to  the  automatic  sprinkler  system. 

The  Secretary.  Has  your  attention  been  called  to  any  method 
of  utilizing  in  a  sprinkler  system  the  same  mixture  that  is  used  in 
chemical  fire  engines  and  thereby  greatly  reducing  at  once  the  size 
of  the  apparatus  and  its  cost  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Not  especially. 

The  Secretary.  Has  that  system  come  to  your  knowledge  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  No,  sir;  it  has  not.  In  fact,  I  am  like  Mr.  Gate- 
wood  in  regard  to  this.  We  have  not  yet  found  in  building  boats  at 
Fore  River  a  shipowner  who  paid  extraordinary  attention  to  fire 
prevention,  other  than  that  required  by^  the  United  States  super- 
vising inspectors  and  classification  societies. 

The  Secretary.  Is  not  that,  after  all,  the  central  fact  in  your  expe- 
rience in  building  passenger  steamers,  that  the  shipowner  does  not 
put  special  stress  upon  fire  prevention  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  Generally,  in  the  ships  we  have  built  he  does  not. 
But,  I  should  like  to  qualify  that  by  stating  that  we  have  not  built 
what  we  call  a  ''fufi"  Imer  or  a  ^'fiul"  passenger  boat  for  a  number 
of  years. 

The  Secretary.  Referring  to  what  Mr.  Gatewood  said  about 
sheathing  the  underdeck  spaces  against  fire:  What  have  you  done  in 
that  direction  ? 

Mr.  BenJ^ett.  Nothing. 

The  Secretary.  What  do  you  think  of  that  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  If  you  can  incase  or  inclose  a  compartment  or  hold 
built  of  wood  by  a  sheet-metal  sheathing  and  allow  a  small  air  space 
between,  you  will  get  more  or  less  of  a  fire  retarder;  it  will  retard 
the  progress  of  the  fire,  but  I  do  not  think  wiU  stop  it,  if  the  fire  is 
of  any  intensity. 

Secretary  Wilson.  Let  me  ask  a  question.  It  may  be  out  of  the 
abundance  of  my  ignorance,  but  in  these  suggestions  the  thought  has 
been  running  through  my  mind.  To  what  extent  would  this  air  space 
add  to  the  intensity  of  a  fire  when  once  a  vent  has  been  made  into 
the  air  space — would  it  add  to  or  detract  from  it  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  do  not  know  that  it  would  add  to  the  progress  of 
the  fire,  because  the  furring  pieces  to  which  the  metal  sheathing  is 
attached  wiU  prevent  a  continuous  draft.  The  air  space  to  my  mind 
wiU  keep  the  surrounding  wood  outside  the  sheathing  cooler  than  the 
steel  sheathing  and  so  prevent  or  delay  its  being  charred  and  set  on 
fire. 

Secretary  Wilson.  I  understand  your  viewpoint,  that  you  make 
a  cushion  of  air ;  but,  having  taken  that  precaution  ia  that  particular 


20 

way  by  putting  an  air  space  there,  suppose  that  the  fire,  when  it  has 
originated,  burns  through  into  the  air  space,  to  what  extent  does  it 
add  to  the  intensity  of  the  fire  under  those  circumstances  ? 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  think  you  would  then  be  down  to  the  same  con- 
ditions in  which  you  would  be  if  the  steel  sheathing  was  not  there; 
in  fact,  it  would  be  even  better,  because  the  amount  of  draft  would, 
I  believe,  be  less. 

The  Secretary.  Capt.  Phinney,  may  I  ask  you  a  question  ?  In 
introducing  Capt.  Phinney  I  would  add  that  he  is  a  man  of  long 
experience  and  also  a  representative  of  the  Associated  Factory  Mutual 
Fire  Insurance  Cos.  Capt.  Phinney,  is  it  not  a  fact  that  to  place 
around  the  top  of  a  stairway  a  vertical  board  partition,  even  though 
small  and  thin,  whereby  the  hot  air  or  flame  is  banked,  so  to  speak,  at 
the  top  of  the  room,  tnat  a  simple  partition  Uke  that  wiU  materially 
delay  the  passage  of  the  fire  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  That  is  true  up  to  a  certain  point.  I  have  seen  a 
pretty  hot  fire  that  would  not  burn  through  such  an  inclosure  in  a 
long  while. 

The  Secretary.  I  think  I  was  told  by  a  representative  of  your 
companies  that  a  wooden  inclosure  of  this  kind  placed  around  the  top 
of  a  staircase  would  delay  a  fire  passing  up  that  staircase  from  10  to  12 
minutes,  even  though  the  staircase  was  of  pine. 

Capt.  Phinney.  When  that  is  made  of  seven-eighths-inch  stuff, 
double,  and  matched,  so  that  the  cracks  are  covered,  we  accept  it  as 
fairly  good. 

I  wish  to  say  one  word  along  the  line  of  the  recent  suggestion  about 
the  air  spaces.  AU  our  efforts  have  been  concentrated  on  removing 
every  possible  concealed  space  from  Mutual  properties,  and  in  pro- 
portion as  we  are  successful  in  removing  these  spaces  we  feel  that  we 
nave  added  to  safety. 

The  Secretary.  Capt.  Phinney,  may  I  ask,  while  you  are  on  your 
feet,  that  you  be  good  enough  to  state  what  your  experience  at  sea  has 
been? 

STATEMENT  OF  CAPT.  C.  H.  PHINNEY,  SECRETARY  OF  INSPECTION 
DEPARTMENT,  FACTORY  MUTUAL  FIRE  INSURANCE  COS.,  BOS- 
TON, MASS. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  I  have  listened  with  great  interest  to 
what  has  been  said,  but  feehng  aU  the  time  that  my  experience  has 
had  very  little  bearing  Dn  river  and  inland  navigation.  I  was  20  years 
at  sea  in  sailing  ships  on  deep-water  voyages,  and  I  saw  the  evolution 
of  the  sailing  ship  to  the  steamship.  There  were  very  few  iron  ships 
when  I  began,  and  there  were  very  few  wooden  sailing  ships  left  when 
I  quit.  My  experience  has  been  m  carrying  coal.  East  India  cargoes, 
tea,  grain,  and  general  cargoes.  The  anxiety  the  shipmaster  has  to 
carry  in  his  mind  as  to  fire  makes  me  realize  that  anything  along  the 
line  of  safeguarding  the  long-voyage  ships  is  very  desirable.  When  it 
comes  to  the  ocean-going  passenger  ships,  the  big  liners,  it  is  almost 
criminal  not  to  take  advantage  of  the  fire  engineering  art  as  it  is 
developed  to-day.  Some  of  the  large  Cunard  and  German  steamships 
have  sprinklers  m  the  lower  holds ;  and  I  think  that  wiU  extend  with- 
out very  much  delay,  for  as  soon  as  it  becomes  known  that  those  ships 
are  safer,  passengers  who  have  knowledge  of  it  will  prefer  them. 


21 

In  these  large  ocean  steamships  when  a  fire  starts  in  the  lower 
holds  a  dense  smoke  is  quickly  developed  and  this  prevents  the 
handling  of  hose  streams  to  advantage,  whereas  if  the  ship  is 
sprinklered  the  water  is  delivered  immediately  over  the  fire  which 
will  be  extinguished  or  controlled  in  spite  of  the  smoke. 

I  do  not  think  it  has  been  brought  out  here  that  the  fact  that  the 
modern  up-to-date  ship  with  fireproof  construction  and  all  known 
fire  prevention  devices  installed  will  have  to  compete,  as  regards 
business  and  freight  earning  abiUty,  with  an  old-fashioned  vessel 
without  any  of  this  expensive  equipment,  but  in  manv  cases  able 
to  compete  on  equal  terms  with  the  much  more  costly  ship,  and  this 
would  seem  to  call  for  some  compensating  arrangement  to  put  them 
more  on  an  equaUtv. 

The  question  of  tne  weight  involved  in  substituting  steel  for  wood 
I  do  not  think  has  so  much  bearing  in  a  -seagoing  ship.     In  the  first 

Elace  the  material  used  is  heavier  now.  You  can  build  these  river 
oats  and  Sound  boats  very  fight,  but  a  liner  must  be  built  very 
substantiafiy.  From  concerns  that  are  represented  here  to-day 
(The  Fore  River  and  the  New  York  Shipbuilding  companies)  I  had 
a  few  years  ago  some  statistics  which  they  furnished  me  on  the  cost 
as  prices  were  then.  The  cost  of  substituting  iron  and  steel  for  wood 
throughout  the  ship  would  not  be  greater  than  between  5  and  10  per 
cent,  more  fikely  nearer  5  per  cent.  I  would  be  in  favor  of  a  thorough- 
going job.  If  you  are  going  to  take  out  some  wood  and  leave  some 
in,  you  fail  to  accompfish  a  good  job  of  protection.  We  find  in  mill 
experience  that  if  we  leave  any  one  place  unprotected,  that  is  the 
place  where  the  fire  wiQ  generally  start  and  get  away  from  us.  I 
should  want  to  get  out  all  the  wood.  Ocean  liners  have  not  the 
chance  of  ^^ running  their  noses  into  the  bank"  to  land  passengers, 
which  advantage  has  been  claimed  for  river  boats;  they  must  rely 
on  their  own  resources.  I  think  all  of  the  wood  should  be  eliminated. 
I  think  the  advancing  price  of  wood  favors  that,  and  will  in  the 
future. 

The  Secretary.  Do  you  regard  *the  sprinkler  system  as  having 
been  sufficiently  developed  to  warrant  its  recommendation  as  a 
general  safeguard  on  ships,  both  for  the  ocean  and  for  inland  waters  ? 

Capt.  Phixney.  I  wish  to  speak  very  guardedly  about  inland 
experience,  as  I  have  not  given  tne  same  thought  to  it  that  I  have  to 
adapting  the  sprinkler  system  to  seagoing  vessels.  I  have  no  hesi- 
tation in  saying  that  I  fufiy  believe  it  would  almost  remove  the  fire 
hazard  in  the  case  of  an  ocean-going  vessel;  and  it  seems  to  me  the 
experience  of  the  Fall  River  Line  and  of  steamers  on  the  Lakes  is 
pretty  good  proof  that  there  is  no  difficulty  in  adapting  the  sprinkler 
system  to  such  vessels. 

It  seems  to  be  impossible  to  use  anything  but  a  dry-pipe  system. 
There  are  places  about  a  ship  where  the  water  in  pipes  would  be 
sure  to  freeze  in  cold  weather  so  I  think  the  use  of  the  dry-pipe 
system  on  shipboard  is  inevitable. 

The  Secretary.  Is  that  not  a  somewhat  dehcate  system  in  its 
adjustments  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  Not  seriously.  In  our  experience  we  have  not 
had  a  failure. 

The  Secretary.  How  large  a  pipe  would  you  use  ? 


22 

Capt.  Phinney.  The  same  as  in  a  factory.  Of  course  it  would 
depend  somewhat  on  the  nature  of  the  layout.  With  the  many 
turns  and  elbows  that  would  probably  be  needed  in  installing  a 
sprinkler  system  throughout  a  vessel  it  would  not  do  to  have  pipe 
too  small  on  account  of  friction  loss. 

The  Secretary.  How  do  you  overcome  the  difficulty  of  storing 
a  sufficient  volume  of  water  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  By  the  use  of  pressure  tanks,  which  are  tanks  of 
moderate  size  about  two-thirds  full  of  water  and  one-third  full  of  air, 
the  air  being  kept  at  about  100  pounds  pressure  by  the  occasional  use 
of  an  air  pump. 

The  Secretary.  How  much  water  would  you  carry  for  a  ship  of 
medium  size  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  Well,  with  good  discipline  the  pumps  ought  to 
be  started  in  5  minutes;  consequently  only  sufficient  water  would  be 
necessary  for  the  first  5  or  10  minutes  to  supply  a  few  heads  until  the 
pump  should  take  the  place  of  the  pressure  tank  drawing  an  unlim- 
ited supply  of  water  from  the  ocean,  except  in  cases  where  a  ship 
was  laid  up,  and  even  then  there  should  be  somebody  aboard  who 
could  start  the  pumps. 

The  Secretary.  Do  you  regard  the  difficulty  in  respect  to  the 
storage  of  a  reserve  supply  of  water  as  serious  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  Not  at  all,  in  a  vessel  of  any  size. 

The  Secretary.  Can  it  be  readily  so  placed  that  it  can  flow  to  the 
sprinkler  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  It  is  forced  there  by  the  air  pressure.  As  soon  as 
the  pump  is  started  you  have  no  further  use  for  your  tank. 

The  Secretary.  How  was  it,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  applied  on  the 
freight  and  passenger  steamers  of  which  you  have  spoken  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  I  have  never  examined  the  installation,  but  I 
have  talked  with  the  General  Fire  Extinguisher  people,  Mr.  Grinnell 
and  others.  I  have  the  drawings  showing  the  sprinkler  layouts  of 
several  of  the  ships. 

The  Secretary.  What  ships  are  they  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  I  can  hand  you  a  list  afterwards.  The  Fall  River 
Line  has  been  mentioned,  and  some  others.  But  we  have  examined 
the  layouts,  and  they  are  like  the  layouts  in  the  mills;  there  is  but 
little  difference  in  detail. 

The  Secretary.  I  have  had  brought  to  my  attention,  Capt. 
Phinney,  the  possibility  of  a  modification  of  the  sprinkler  system, 
whereby  it  could  be  adapted  to  marine  use  without  requiring  as 
much  piping  or  as  heavy  valves  or  as  much  tankage  as  is  used  on 
land,  by  using  the  same  materials  which  are  common  in  chemical  fire 
engines.     Have  you  any  knowledge  of  that  ? 

Capt.  Phinney.  We  have  had  no  experience  in  our  business  except 
as  we  found  it  in  our  extinguishers.  No  building,  to  my  knowledge, 
has  been  equipped  by  substituting  that  for  water.  Mr.  Pryor,  am  I 
right? 

Mr.  Pryor.  I  believe  there  are  no  buildings  equipped  with  them. 

The  Secretary.  But  such  a  system  is  in  existence. 

Capt.  Phinney.  I  will  say  this,  that  anything  which  will  not 
take  care  of  large  fires  I  should  not  believe  in.  We  have  a  saying  in 
our  department  that  a  man  ought  to  be  himg  that  ever  laid  anything 
smaller  than  a  6-inch  pipe. 


23 

The  Seceetary.  We  shall  now  be  glad  to  hear  from  Mr.  Berry, 
of  the  New  England  Steamship  Co. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  WARREN  T.  BERRY,  SUPERINTENDENT  OF 
MARINE  CONSTRUCTION,  NEW  ENGLAND  STEAMSHIP  CO.,  NEW- 
PORT, R.  I. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  some  of  the  shipbuilders  present 
seem  to  think  the  owners  are  not  particularly  interested  in  fire  pro- 
tection. Possibly  not  all  of  them  are,  but  some  are  particularly 
interested.  I  am  fortunately  employed  by  a  company  that  is  giving 
a  great  deal  of  thought  to  the  matter,  and  I  think  there  are  many 
others;  but,  as  the  Fall  River  Line  has  been  spoken  of  a  number  of 
times,  I  will  simply  review  what  has  been  done  there.  We  operate 
not  only  the  Fall  River  Line  but  lines  between  New  York  and  New 
Bedford,  New  London,  New  Haven,  Providence,  and  Bridgeport. 
All  our  steamers  have  steel  inclosures  extending  through  all  decks 
around  engine  rooms  and  funnels.  This  is  practically  universal  on 
steamers  oi  the  Sound  type,  recently  built.  We  have  utilized  various 
fire-re tardant,  composite  boards  in  recent  construction  wherever 
possible,  and  are  more  than  willing  to  adopt  any  fire-re  tardant  or 
fireproof  construction  which  is  adaptable  to  our  service.  Our  steamers 
Commonwealth  and  Plymouth  are  fitted  with  fire-retardant  bulkheads, 
dividing  the  vessel  into  three  parts;  the  cargo  spaces  are  fined  through- 
out with  galvanized  sheet  steel,  and  the  entire  interior  of  each  vessel 
fitted  with  sprinkler  systems.  Our  freight  steamer  Pequonnock  is 
also  fitted  with  a  sprinkler  system  in  the  main  deck  cargo  space, 
making  three  steamers  in  all  with  sprinklers. 

The  Secretary.  How  does  it  operate  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  We  have  never  had  occasion  to  operate  it,  fortunately. 

The  Secretary.  On  what  principle  does  it  operate  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  It  is  a  dry-pipe  system,  manually  operated.  The 
pump  is  controlled  by  a  governor,  and  a  pressure  of  100  pounds  is 
maintained  to  a  manifold  in  the  engine  room.  Beyond  that  the 
water  is  not  allowed  to  go  except  in  case  of  necessity.  We  do  this  for 
various  reasons.  The  weight  of  water  which  would  be  contained  in 
a  sprinkler  system  all  over  the  vessel  is  a  very  serious  proposition, 
not  from  its  percentage  of  the  total  displacement,  but  from  its  loca- 
tion as  affecting  the  stability  of  the  vessel.  Furthermore,  it  could  not 
be  protected  in  the  open  cargo  spaces  from  freezing  in  the  winter. 
The  Pequonnock  was  originally  fitted  with  an  automatic  dry-pipe 
system,  controlled  by  an  automatic  valve  which  admitted  water  to 
the  system  upon  the  opening  of  any  sprinkler  head.  While  this  sys- 
tem seems  to  operate  successfully  in  many  places,  our  experience 
with  broken  sprmklers  on  the  Pequonnock,  wliere  freight  is  stowed 
close  to  the  sprinklers,  led  us  to  abandon  the  automatic  valve  and 
decide  that  the  manually  operated  system  was  the  only  one  we  could 
use.  Further  experience  has  led  us  to  believe  that  a  sprinkler  pipe 
discharging  water  into  passenger  quarters  iii  case  of  collision  would  be 
very  serious,  in  that  it  would  create  panic  among  passengers.  Our 
system,  therefore,  is  manually  operated  from  a  manifold  in  the  en- 
gine room.  In  connection  with  the  sprinkler  system  there  is  a  ther- 
mostat system  arranged  in  circuits  corresponding  with  the  sprinklers. 

Mr.  Myrick.  I  should  like  to  have  you,  if  you  will,  give  the  pro- 
cedure from  the  time  the  alarm  comes  in — ^how  long  it  takes  to  do  it. 


24 

Your  pump  is  going  with  a  pressure  of  100  pounds  up  to  your  mani- 
fold.    Now,  then,  an  alarm  comes  in. 

Mr.  Berry.  It  is  registered  on  an  annunciator  within  10  feet  of  the 
manifold.  The  drop  of  section  No.  20,  we  will  say,  on  the  saloon  deck 
forward,  port  side,  comes  down.  A  man  simply  steps  over  to  the 
manifold  and  opens  valve  No.  20  and  his  mission  is  fulfilled  in  so  far 
as  the  operation  of  the  sprinkler  system  is  concerned.  It  is  necessary 
to  divide  sprinkler  systems  into  circuits,  because  the  size  of  the  pip- 
ing is  limited  to  some  extent;  and  I  believe  this  is  the  common  prac- 
tice in  sprinkler  engineering.  There  are  other  steamboat  lines  which 
have  installed  the  automatic  system.  One  is  the  Goodrich  Line,  of 
Chicago,  which  has  three  entirely  automatic  systems.  We  are  not 
yet  convinced  that  this  is  the  proper  thing  to  do. 

We  have  gone  into  aU-steel  construction  very  much  in  detail.  Mr. 
Taylor  has  told  you  the  result  of  the  estimate  of  weights  on  the  Ply- 
moutJi,  and  I  have  recently  estimated  the  weights  of  such  construc- 
tion on  a  small  passenger  and  freight  steamer  190  feet,  water-line 
length.  On  that  steamer  the  joiner  work,  as  usually  built  of  wood 
above  the  main  deck,  was  estimated  to  weigh  77  tons.  The  construc- 
tion considered  was  practically  all  steel  except  the  decks  and  deck 
carlins,  and  resulted  in  an  estimated  increase  of  46  tons,  or  between 
60  and  70  per  cent  of  the  total  weight  of  that  portion  of  the  vessel. 
Steel  decks  above  the  main  deck  were  not  considered  because  of  the 
prohibitive  weight. 

This  entire  question  is  so  very  large  that  it  can  not  be  thrashed  out 
at  any  one  meeting.  It  should  be  considered  by  a  committee  or  by 
a  commission  that  will  be  in  session  at  all  times.  The  art  is  advancing 
every  month;  changes  are  being  made  every  month.  It  is  going  to 
be  a  very  serious  handicap  to  apply  many  of  the  things  that  can  be 
done  in  new  construction  to  old  construction.  Boats  of  this  country 
can  not  be  revolutionized  by  any  rules  or  regulations  unless  it  is  de- 
cided to  throw  them  all  away  and  build  all  new  ones.  There  are  many 
things  that  can  be  done,  however.  I  believe  that  the  recent  rule  ap- 
proved on  April  8,  requiring  sprinkler  systems  or  steel  sheathing  for 
cargo  spaces,  is  a  good  one.  There  is  only  one  trouble  with  it.  It 
does  not  go  far  enough.  It  should  have  specified  what  the  rec[uire- 
ment  for  sprinklers  was  and  not  leave  that  to  the  discretion  of  assistant 
or  local  inspectors  in  various  parts  of  the  country.  Their  ideas  on  the 
subject  must  necessarily  be  very  different  one  from  another,  and 
sprinkler  engineering  has  advanced  far  enough  to-day  so  that  it  would 
not  be  a  difficult  proposition  to  make  specifications  and  incorporate 
them  in  the  rules,  which  would  produce  an  efficient  system  and  not 
leave  it  to  anyone's  discretion. 

The  Secretary.  Do  you  think  it  is  possible  to  make  a  standard  speci- 
fication of  general  application  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  A  general  specification?  Yes,  sir;  I  do.  The  spacing 
and  type  of  sprinklers,  the  number  of  circuits  allowable,  the  number 
of  sprinklers  to  each  circuit,  the  size  of  the  pipes,  and  the  size  of  the 
pump  could  be  specified  on  all  installations.  I  am  not  at  all  sure, 
however,  that  all  existing  steamers  can  be  properly  sprinkled  without 
practically  rebuilding  them.  This  is  a  matter  which  requires  consid- 
erable thought  and  investigation. 

The  Secretary.  But  would  you  say  that  most  steamers  could  be 
very  much  safeguarded  in  that  way  ? 


25 

Mr.  Berry.  Anything  done  in  the  line  of  retarding  fire  by  sprinkling 
even  a  portion  of  the  vessel,  by  the  use  of  asbestos  board,  composite 
boards,  steel  sheathing,  steel  in  place  of  wood — all  help. 

The  Secretary.  You  have  reference,  however,  if  I  understand  you 
correctly,  Mr.  Berry,  to  a  manually  operated  system  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  That  is  what  I  personally  beheve  in,  what  my  company 
believes  in.  There  are  other  companies  and  other  men  who  do  not 
agree  with  that. 

The  Secretary.  Do  you  know  whether  these  other  companies  and 
other  men  of  whom  you  spoke  have  encountered  any  serious  practical 
difficulties  in  the  operation  of  those  systems  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  They  advise  me  they  have  not.  Mr.  Goodrich  can 
probably  tell  you  of  his  experience.  He  has  had  his  experience  and 
we  have  had  ours.  The  operating  conditions  vary  considerably,  and 
the  experience  varies  accorduigly.  Spriakler  systems  are  compara- 
tively new  thuigs  on  shipboard.  They  have  not  been  developed, 
possibly,  to  the  extent  they  will  be  in  the  future.  One  thought  that 
occurs  to  us  is  this.  Suppose  one  of  our  boats  is  struck  by  another 
vessel  and  considerable  joiner  work  destroyed.  What  will  be  the 
result  if  in  the  course  of  that  destruction  one  or  more  sprinkler  pipes 
are  broken  and  water  is  discharged  into  passenger  quarters?  We 
beheve  it  would  create  panic  among  the  passengers  who  may  be  there, 
and  we  are  willing  to  sacrifice,  if  you  please,  some  portion  of  the  pro- 
tection from  fire  which  might  be  obtained  from  the  automatic  system 
to  avoid  the  possibiUty  of  panic  among  passengers.  That  very  con- 
dition has  arisen  on  our  steamers.  The  Commonwealth  was  in  collision 
with  a  Norwegian  tramp  off  New  London,  which  carried  away  some 
of  the  joiner  work  forward,  and  the  sprinkler  pipes  were  very  badly- 
damaged.  We  believe  that  if  there  had  been  water  runnuig  through 
those  pipes  it  would  have  created  a  panic,  which  fortunately  did  not 
occur. 

The  Secretary.  I  do  not  know  that  it  is  quite  clear  to  my  mind, 
^Ir.  Berry,  why  that  should  create  a  panic,  why  there  should  be  a  tend- 
ency toward  creating  a  panic.  I  can  well  understand  that  if  anything 
in  the  way  of  water  coming  from  below,  fire  from  below,  or  anything 
of  that  kind  would  have  tms  tendency.  But  a  shower  of  water  from 
-overhead.  What  is  the  point  of  view,  that  they  are  panic-stricken, 
scared  because  they  think  the  ship  is  goiag  down  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  They  are  on  edge  on  account  of  the  collision.  Can  you 
imagine  a  farmer  from  Massachusetts  occupying  a  stateroom  and  the 
side  of  that  stateroom  being  ripped  out  and  water  from  perhaps  a 
3-inch  pipe  descending  on  him  ? 

The  Secretary.  In  a  stateroom  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes. 

The  Secretary.  You  mean  it  breaks  the  main  pipe  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir;  the  main  pipes  go  through  staterooms  in 
order  to  supply  other  staterooms.  That  gentleman  would  come  out 
into  the  saloon  and  "raise  some  riot."  It  does  not  take  much  to 
create  panic  when  anything  unusual  happens  on  shipboard. 

The  Secretary.  Is  it  not  the  experience  of  sprinkler  engineers  that 
anything  which  is  not  perfectly  automatic  fails  at  the  critical  time  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  I  have  not  any  views  on  the  subject.     I  am  trying 
to  get  your  views  clearly. 
46281—16 4 


26 

Mr.  Berry.  Yes,  sir;  there  is  the  possibility  of  such  failure.  Our 
system  requires  the  human  element,  which  we  prefer  to  accept  rather 
tnan  to  incur  the  risk  of  panic  of  which  I  have  spoken. 

The  Secretary.  Suppose  you  were  now  designing  another  ship 
for  a  similar  service.  What  changes  would  you  make  in  her,  being 
given  a  free  hand  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  I  do  not  know  that  we  could  make  any  material 
changes  in  the  steamer  Commonwealth,  for  instance.  It  is  possible 
that  various  composite  boards  now  produced  would  be  advantageous 
to  use.  We  would  not  be  inclined  to  make  any  changes  in  the 
sprinkler  system.  I  do  not  believe  it  is  possible  to  make  any  changes 
in  the  character  of  the  decks.  Possibly  steel  might  be  substituted 
in  minor  quantities  here  and  there  for  wood  in  various  parts  of  the 
standing  structure.  Beyond  that  I  do  not  know  what  we  could  do. 
We  would  like  to  be  told  if  there  is  anything  that  can  be  done. 

The  Secretary.  I  thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Berry. 

Gen.  Uhler.  I  would  like  to  ask  Mr.  Berry  just  one  question. 
There  seems  to  be  some  doubt,  Mr.  Berry,  as  to  the  cause  for  panic. 
Is  it  not  the  fact,  and  is  it  not  the  experience  generally,  that  anything 
out  of  the  usual,  particularly  at  night,  wiU  create  panic,  as  in  the 
case  of  a  collision,  where  they  feel  the  bump?  They  know  that 
something  has  occurred,  and  then  they  are  deluged  for  the  time 
with  water  coming  from  above. 

Mr.  Berry.  They  do  not  care  where  it  comes  from. 

Gen.  Uhler.  Is  it  not  the  fact  that  anything  out  of  the  usual,  and 
particularly  at  night 

Mr.  Berry  (interrupting).  A  boat  stopping  in  the  middle  of  the 
night  will  bring  people  to  the  stateroom  doors  with  their  heads  out. 
It  needs  only  one  man  to  start  those  people  on  a  rush  somewhere; 
they  do  not  know  where. 

Mr.  Myrick.  May  I  say  something  on  this  subject  of  thermostats. 
I  was  fortunate  in  having  a  fire  and  boat  drill  held  for  my  benefit 
on  the  steamer  Providence  on  the  dock  at  New  York.  We  went  to 
the  stateroom  on  the  topmost  deck  and  started  the  alarm  through 
the  thermostat.  In  17  seconds  by  the  watch  there  were  two  stew- 
ards, each  with  a  fire  extinguisher,  at  the  stateroom  door.  In  less 
than  a  minute  there  were  seven  streams  of  water  being  played  over 
the  sides.  In  the  boat  drill  a  minute  and  a  half  from  the  time  the 
bell  was  rung  there  was  a  boat  being  rowed  out  to  the  dock. 

The  Secretary.  Did  they  know  the  drill  was  to  come  off  ? 

Mr.  Myrick.  No,  sir;  they  did  not. 

STATEMENT  OF  HON.  WILLIAM  B.  WILSON,  SECRETARY  OF  LABOR. 

Mr.  Secretary,  it  will  not  be  possible  for  me  to  be  back  here  this 
afternoon.     May  I  say  a  word  just  before  I  go  ? 

It  has  seemed  to  me  from  the  statements  made  to-day  by  men  who 
are  in  the  best  position  to  be  famihar  with  the  subject  that  there  is 
possibly  a  great  deal  of  information  that  might  be  made  available  if 
it  was  made  somebody's  business  to  go  after  it,  get  it,  and  collate  it; 
and  that  when  you  had  that  information  available  you  would  be  in 
a  better  position  to  determine  the  remedies  which  should  be  applied. 
I  think  that  is  true  particularly  with  regard  to  the  question  oi  mate- 
rials.    I  think  it  is  also  true  with  regard  to  some  phases  of  construe- 


27 

tion.  ^\jid  I  want  to  throw  out  this  suggestion,  that  it  might  be 
well  to  have  placed  in  the  hands  of  the  Department  of  Commerce, 
the  Department  of  Labor,  and  the  Navy  Department  the  selection  of 
a  commission  composed  of  representatives  of  the  three  bureaus  in 
those  dejDartments  that  would  be  interested,  to  undertake  the  work 
of  gathering,  compiling,  and  putting  into  proper  shape  the  informa- 
tion that  seems  to  be  needed  for  the  proper  consideration  of  the 
question  of  preventing  fires  on  ships  and  their  control  and  extinguish- 
ment when  they  occur.  When  that  has  been  done  you  would  be  in 
a  position  to  determine  just  how  far  remedies  could  be  applied  to 
old  vessels,  and  to  what  extent  they  could  be  applied  to  vessels 
hereafter  constructed. 

I  thank  you,  Mr.  Secretary,  for  the  opportunity  of  being  present, 
and  I  am  sorry  I  can  not  stay  longer. 

The  Secretary.  I  am  going  in  a  few  moments  to  ask  Mr.  Du- 
Bosque  of  the  Pennsylvania  Railroad  to  express  his  views,  but  w^hile 
what  my  friend.  Secretary  Wilson,  has  said  is  fresh  in  your  minds  I 
want  to  suggest  something  to  you  along  that  same  line  for  you  to 
think  of;  and  that  leads  me  also  to  say  certain  things  before  I 
commence  the  suggestion. 

I  should  like  to  have  you  think  over  the  question  whether  there 
should  not  be  a  committee  appointed  before  we  close  this  afternoon, 
a  committee  to  cooperate  witn  us  in  developing  this  matter  further. 
I  want  to  say  also  that  I  hope  we  shall  have  these  proceedings  all 
transcribed,  and  proof  will  be  sent  to  each  of  the  gentlemen  present 
of  what  they  have  said,  and  we  shall  consider  it  not  a  discourtesy 
but  a  favor  if  they  wiD  alter,  enlarge,  or  contract  their  remarks  as 
they  see  fit.  We  shall  then  hope  to  have  the  proceedings  in  shape 
for  the  general  use  of  you  all  and  those  whom  you  may  desire  to  have 
them,  so  that  the  fullest  possible  hght  may  be  thrown  upon  the 
problem.     We  are  not  here  to  lay  down  law  but  to  get  the  truth. 

Now  along  the  line  of  what  this  commitee  might  do,  and  following 
Secretary  Wilson's  suggestion:  We  are  in  constant  touch  in  the 
Bureau  of  Standards  with  all  the  great  engineering  societies  of  the 
country;  are  working  w^th  them  all  the  time.  There  is  not  one  of 
them  but  has  its  own  committee  operating  with  the  Bureau  of 
Standards  continuously.  We  have  been  for  two  years  at  work  all 
the  time  upon  the  study  of  the  law  of  columns  ior  the  American 
Society  of  Mechanical  Engineers  and  the  American  Society  of  Civil 
Engineers.  There  is  a  constant  committee  representing  each  of  the 
great  technical  societies  that  cooperates  with  that  service.  We  are 
in  a  position,  for  example,  to  take  this  question  that  Mr.  Olcott 
referred  to,  this  question  of  fibei-s,  and  undertake  a  study  that  no 
paper  mill  could  ever  afford  to  make  of  the  development  of  fire- 
proof fiber.  W^e  have  got  a  paper  mill  of  our  own.  We  have  the 
only  plant,  I  think,  in  the  country  which  is  able  to  test  the  fire- 
resisting  quality  of  materials  on  a  very  large  scale.  We  are  doing 
it  all  the  time.  We  do  it  on  a  very  large  scale,  indeed.  We  take 
building  panels  of  any  material,  any  kind  of  material,  16  feet  square, 
and  destroy  it  by  fire,  employing  a  uniform,  known  temperature, 
know^ing  what  w^e  are  about. 

Now  all  that  is  at  the  service  of  your  industrv^  without  expense  if 
it  wants  it,  and  I  think  there  is  hardly  one  of  the  great  technical 
industries  of  the  country  that  is  not  in  touch  with  the  force  of  350 


28 

scientific  men  that  we  have  at  the  Bureau,  with  the  finest  research 
laboratory  in  the  world,  which  cost  over  $1,000,000. 

It  occurs  to  me  that  it  may  be  desirable  to  have  some  studies  made 
of  the  things  which  are  not  now  done  but  which  ought  to  be  done  if 
it  can  be  done.  We  are  doing  that  for  all  sorts  of  industries,  the 
American  Cotton  Oil  Co.  and  the  electro  typing  industry.  Every 
steel  mill  in  the  Nation  operates  in  accordance  with  the  standards 
made  there. 

That  is  the  thing  I  want  you  to  have  in  the  back  of  your  minds  the 
rest  of  the  day.  In  some  way  I  think  you  ought  to  have  at  your  beck 
and  call  an  instant  knowledge  of  what  is  being  done  at  the  Forest 
Products  Laboratory,  where  wood  is  being  studied  in  the  same 
scientific  way  and  without  any  prejudices  or  foUy.  They  have 
developed  some  very  surprising  things,  too,  not  for  the  interest  of 
any  man  or  for  any  inventor,  or  anything  of  that  kind,  but  for  the 
interest  of  the  country  at  large.  We  could  get  very  readily  a  repre- 
sentative of  that  very  important  service  who  would  put  at  your  dis- 
posal certitude  on  these  matters,  free  from  any  manufacturer's 
interest. 

There  are  two  lines,  it  seems  to  me,  where  the  possibilities  are  open. 

Mr.  DuBosque,  will  you  now  express  your  views  as  frankly  as  you 
care  to  do  ? 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  F.  L.  DuBOSQTJE,  ASSISTANT  ENGINEER,  THE 
PENNSYLVANIA  RAILROAD  CO.,  NEW  YORK,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Secretary,  the  company  I  am  connected  with  is  an  enthusiastic 
advocate  of  fireproof  construction,  and  we  have  succeeded  in  produc- 
ing fireproof  ferryboats,  tugboats,  and  barges;  but  after  listening  to 
the  rem;  rks  made  by  the  gentlemen  that  have  preceded  me,  I  can 
appreciate  the  difficulties  to  be  overcome  in  building  a  passenger 
steamer  with  sleeping  accommodations  of  fireproof  construction. 

It  is  rather  a  simple  problem  to  build  a  fireproof  freight  barge, 
some  difficulties  have  to  be  overcome  in  building  a  fireproof  tugboat, 
and  quite  a  number  of  problems  are  involved  in  the  construction  of  a 
fireproof  ferryboat.  This  company  fortunately  has  at  its  command 
the  facilities  of  a  very  complete  laboratory  and  test  department, 
enabling  them  to  experiment  with  the  various  fireproof  materials  that 
might  be  used  for  construction  work,  and  to  determine  the  miimnum 
steel  sections  that  could  be  used  in  the  supporting  structure,  together 
with  the  best  method  of  fastening  them  together.  Unfortmiately, 
very  few  shipbuilders  or  shipowners  have  such  complete  facilities  for 
making  the  necessary  experiments. 

One  of  the  important  features  in  designing  passenger  steamers  is 
weight;  and  while  a  10  per  cent  increase  in  weight  does  not  seriously 
affect  the  efficiency  of  a  ferryboat,  this  increase  would  be  quite 
objectionable  on  the  modern  passenger  steamer,  and  our  experience 
in  experimenting  with  various  fireproof  materials  leads  us  to  believe 
there  would  be  considerable  difficulty  in  producing  a  fireproof  passen- 
ger steamer  at  this  time.  However,  we  believe  that  some  progress 
should  be  made  in  this  direction  on  all  steamers,  and  that  a  start 
should  be  made. 

It  would  seem  proper  to  commence  on  ferryboats,  but  if  we  do  so 
it  would  be  necessary  to  classify  the  tj^e  of  ferryboat  to  be  so  con- 


29 

struct ed.  Under  the  law  any  type  of  boat  from  a  small  lamich 
upward  in  size  can  be  construed  as  a  ferryboat.  Therefore  it  seems 
that  it  would  be  somewhat  difficult  to  comply  with  a  law  requiring 
all  ferryboats  to  be  of  fireproof  construction.  Instead  of  enacting 
a  law  that  would  apply  to  every  type  of  passenger  steamer,  would 
it  not  be  better  to  frame  the  statute  so  that  your  Department  would' 
be  the  arbiter  on  the  type  of  construction  to  be  used  in  these  vessels  ? 
Fireproof  materials  can  be  used  to  a  considerable  extent  on  all  types 
of  boats,  and  under  such  an  arrangement  your  Department  could, 
when  designs  of  vessels  were  submitted  to  you,  incficate  what  part 
of  the  vessel  it  would  be  practical  to  construct  of  fireproof  materials. 
Rules  that  apply  uniformly  to  all  types  of  vessels  are  a  mistake,  and 
numerous  instances  can  be  cited  where  this  practice  interferes  with 
instead  of  aiding  the  efficiency  in  operation  and  protection  to  vessels. 
Rules  should  be  made  in  such  a  way  that  they  can  be  modified  to  suit 
the  particular  type  of  vessel  to  which  they  are  applied. 

Your  suggestion  to  appoint  a  committee  to  investigate  the  prac- 
ticability of  fireproof  construction  is  excellent,  and  w3l  result,  I  am 
sure,  in  specifying  that  certain  types  of  vessels  should  be  of  fireproof 
construction,  and  a  start  will  then  be  made  on  this  desirable  feature. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  DuBosque,  what,  in  general,  was  the  con- 
struction that  you  used  upon  your  fireproof  ferryboats  ? 

Mr.  DuBosque.  The  hulls  are  built  of  steel  of  the  usual  con- 
struction, the  deck  beams  are  of  steel,  the  sides  of  the  cabins  are  of 
thin  steel  plate  supported  by  steel  stanchions  of  H  section,  to  which 
they  are  riveted.  The  decks  are  of  steel  plates  supported  by  steel 
angle  bar  beams.  Ferryboats,  fortunately,  have  a  bulkliead  extend- 
ing from  end  to  end  of  the  boat  and  from  the  main  to  the  upper 
deck,  and  this,  together  with  the  steel  center  house,  provides  an 
intermediate  support  for  the  upper  deck  beams,  which  reduces  the 
span  of  these  beams  so  that  very  light  beams  can  be  used,  and  in  this 
respect  ferryboats  have  a  great  advantage  over  the  passenger  steamer. 
The  interior  of  the  cabins  is  covered  with  panels  made  of  an  asbestos 
cement  material  and  these  panels  are  held  in  place  by  steel  moldings. 
There  is  no  exposed  wood  on  this  ferryboat  except  the  deck  covering 
in  the  vehicle  space.  No  substitute  could  be  found  for  wood  for  this 
particular  part  of  the  boat. 

The  Secretary.  The  deck  underneath  that  is  of  steel  ? 

Mr.  DuBosque.  Yes. 

The  Secretary.  Of  what  material  are  the  seats  in  your  cabins  ? 

Mr.  DuBosque.  The  seats  extend  continuously  along  the  sides 
of  the  cabins,  and  on  the  first  boat  built  these  were  constructed  of 
steel  covered  with  so-called  ^ insulating"  paint.  There  was  con- 
siderable objection  on  the  part  of  the  passenger  traffic  because  the 
seats  were  cold  to  sit  on,  and  on  the  subsequent  boats  the  seat  frames 
were  made  of  steel,  covered  with  cherry  slats  three-fourths  inch 
thick. 

The  Secretary.  How  many  boats  of  the  general  fireproof  class 
have  you  operating  ? 

Mr.  DuBosque.  Four. 

The  Secretary.  Are  they  of  a  standard  type  ? 

Mr.  DuBosque.  They  are  of  a  standard  type  and  similar.  Future 
boats  will  be  built  of  this  type  with  such  improvements  as  we  can 
make. 


30 

The  Secretary.  I  will  ask  Mr.  Croker,  former  fire  chief,  to  express 
his  views  to  us. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  EDWARD  F.  CROKER,  EX  CHIEF  NEW  YORK 
FIRE  DEPARTMENT,  NEW  YORK,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  I  have  been  very  much  interested  in 
the  discussion,  both  pro  and  con.  During  my  experience  in  the  New 
York  fire  department  naturally  I  have  been  to  a  great  many  fires 
and  a  great  many  fires  on  various  kinds  of  boats.  At  that  time  I 
was  also  a  member  of  the  building  department  and  a  member  of  the 
board  of  examiners  of  New  York.  The  building  department,  of 
course,  approves  all  plans  for  construction  of  boats,  etc.  The  board 
of  examiners  acts  as  a  board  of  appeals  from  the  superintendent  of 
builders.  If  any  builder  objects  to  the  superintendent  of  builders, 
he  has  a  right  to  appeal  to  the  board  of  examiners.  Therefore  they 
can  never  lay  down  any  rule  that  would  cover  all  buildings  in  New 
York.  The  same  is  true  with  the  construction  of  boats,  wdth  the 
supervision  of  boats.  You  can  not  build  them  all  ahke.  One  boat 
may  require  sprinklers  and  another  boat  may  not  require  them. 
Some  boats  may  be  built  semifireproof  and  some  should  not  be.  It 
has  been  my  experience,  Mr.  Secretary,  that  you  can  not  lay  down 
any  hard  and  fast  rules. 

But  your  remarks  on  the  opening  of  our  meeting  seemed  to  me  to 
strike  the  nail  on  the  head.  Fires  should  not  occur,  and  if  they  do 
they  should  not  be  allowed  to  extend.  My  experience  with  fixes  has 
been  that  99  fires  out  of  every  100  are  due  to  what  you  may  call  poor 
housekeeping;  boats  are  not  properlj  inspected,  accumulation  of 
dirt,  of  rubbish,  of  oil  waste.  The  paint  rooms  on  a  majority  of  the 
boats  ought  not  be  aboard  a  boat.  Your  rope  rooms,  your  galleys, 
your  quarters  for  your  help,  particularly  for  men,  are  breeders.  I 
have  been  aboard  a  number  of  boats,  one  last  summer,  outside  of 
New  York  Harbor.  I  wiU  not  mention  any  name.  I  asked  the 
captain  if  he  would  have  a  fire  driU.  He  said,  "  AU  right;  good  idea." 
He  sounded  his  fire  alarm.  Some  of  the  men  came  to  quarters: 
They  did  not  know  whether  it  was  on  the  port  side  or  on  the  star- 
board side.  They  did  not  know  where  boat  No.  1  was  nor  where 
boat  No.  8  was.  They  lowered  a  boat  and  did  not  know  how  to  row. 
Such  things  as  that  are  what  cause  loss  of  life. 

When  they  go  to  inspect  a  building  in  New  York  they  go  to  the 
breeders,  not  to  the  high-class  buildings.  A  lot  of  the  boats  floating 
around  our  harbors,  many  of  them  around  New  York,  ought  not  to 
be  allowed  afloat.  The  companies  that  own  good  boats,  the  Albany 
Day  Line  and  others,  have  got  to  be  the  sufferers.  It  is  unfair  to 
estabhsh  fast  rules.  It  would  not  be  fair  to  have  someone  come 
along  here  [indicating]  and  put  up  a  4  or  5  story  frame  building  which 
would  jeopardize  you. 

A  great  many  things  can  be  done  to  decrease  the  fire  hazard.  I 
saw  a  test  of  a  fireproof  paiat  made  by  the  department  of  docks  and 
the  department  of  bridges,  which  they  adopted.  The  paint  does 
not  cost  any  more  than  ordinary  paint.  They  tested  it  by  blowpipes 
until  they  burned  a  hole  through  an  inch  board,  and  it  d.id  not  take 
fire. 

The  air  alarms,  such  as  they  use  on  the  Albany  Day  Line,  I  think 
are  the  best  detector  of  anything  I  ever  saw.     You  take  a  newspaper 


31 

in  this  corner  of  the  room  and  have  your  air  alarm  in  that  corner  of 
the  room  [indicating],  and  light  it,  and  the  heat  generated  by  that 
newspaper  in  15  to  25  or  30  seconds  will  give  the  alarm.  It  costs 
very  little  and  is  very  efficient. 

My  experience  has  not  been  very  great  with  fiber  boards. 

Some  gentlemen  here  spoke  about  air  spaces.  It  has  always  been 
a  custom  of  firemen  throughout  the  country  to  stop  all  air  spaces 
where  possible.     Air  spaces  are  where  your  fire  will  get  away  from 

Asbestos  board  was  also  mentioned.  Asbestos  board  is  very  nice 
and  absolutely  fireproof,  but  it  is  heavy  and  expensive. 

In  the  fire  department  of  New  York  they  approved  fireproof  wood 
for  several  years,  but  found  out  that  the  wood  would  deteriorate  in 
time.  We  have  had  a  number  of  fires  in  buildings  furnished  with 
fireproof  wood  which  have  been  quite  serious. 

As  to  sprinkler  systems  for  boats,  on  all  freight-carrying  and 
passenger  boats,  I  think  they  should  be  equipped  with  sprinklers. 
They  have  advanced  to  a  state  of  perfection.  They  are  practically 
new,  so  far  as  boats  are  concerned,  but  there  is  not  a  bit  of  differ- 
ence between  the  equipment  of  a  boat  and  that  in  a  building. 

Dry  systems:  From  a  fire  standpoint,  we  never  depend  on  manual 
when  we  can  get  automatic.  If  there  is  a  panic,  maybe  a  little 
water  on  some  of  them  would  quiet  their  panic.  A  crowd  is  queer. 
The  police  sometimes  disperse  a  crowd  by  sprinkling  a  little  water 
on  them. 

Wire  glass  can  be  used  on  boats  to  good  effect.  Wire  glass  set  in 
metal  frames  is  an  A  No.  1  fire  retard er.  The  principal  thin^  is  to 
prevent  your  fire;  do  not  let  it  occur.  Have  proper  inspection  of 
your  boats  to  see  that  everything  is  kept  clean;  have  your  fire  appli- 
ances inspected  monthly;  have  an  organization  on  board  your  vessel 
to  handle  your  fire  appliances  and  to  know  what  to  do  in  case  any- 
thing happens. 

There  is  no  reason  why  people  should  take  a  panic  just  because  a 
little  fire  occurs.  It  is  easy  to  put  it  out  with  proper  equipment  and 
proper  organization. 

They  claim  there  is  not  much  danger  of  fire  on  these  excursion 
boats;  but  the  Slocum,  within  500  feet  of  shore,  lost  1,000  people. 
They  could  have  run  their  nose  ashore  any  time  they  wanted  to. 
And  other  boats — the  North  German  Lloyd  liner  in  Hoboken  was 
burned — and  look  how  many  people  were  lost  and  how  many  other 
ships  were  destroyed  there. 

The  Albany  Day  Line  boats:  I  think  if  the  majority  of  aU  boat 
builders  would  take  an  example  from  the  construction,  care,  main- 
tenance, and  cleanliness  of  their  boats,  we  would  have  very  few  fires, 
because  they  certainly  have  gone  to  the  extreme  on  construction  and 
fire  appliances  and  maintenance  and  inspection  and  drills. 

There  is  a  lot  more  to  be  said  about  fires  and  one  thing  and  another, 
but  many  of  the  people  here  are  in  a  hurry  to  get  home,  and  I  will 
not  take  any  more  time,     I  shall  be  glad  to  answer  any  questions. 

Mr.  Taylor.  Mr.  Croker,  you  said  there  was  no  reason  why  people 
should  get  into  a  panic  in  the  case  of  a  small  fire,  did  you  not  ? 

Mr.  Croker.  I  meant  the  crews  on  board  the  boats.  I  should  like 
to  correct  that.     People  are  the  most  panicky  things  on  earth.     In 


32 

the  case  of  the  Triangle  fire  they  jumped  out  of  an  11-story  window 
when  they  could  have  run  downstairs. 

Mr.  Bkock.  Mr.  Croker,  what  has  been  your  experience  with  metal 
furniture  in  fires  in  New  York  ?  Have  you  found  that  it  burned  up  ? 
Have  you  found  that  it  acted  as  a  retardant  ? 

Mr.  Croker.  I  never  knew  it  to  burn  up. 

Mr.  Brock.  The  statement  was  made  that  steel  would  burn  up. 
Would  you  consider  a  steel  building  equipped  with  steel  furniture  as 
absolutely  fireproof  ? 

Mr.  Croker.  No. 

Mr.  Brock.  An  entire  steel  equipment  ? 

Mr.  Croker.  No. 

Mr.  Brock.  With  nothing  combustible  inside  the  building? 

Mr.  Croker.  Of  course,  you  can  take  a  stove  without  any  fire  in 
it  and  it  is  incombustible — do  not  have  any  fire  in  it,  or  any  fuel,  or 
anything  else,  then  it  is  fireproof. 

A  Voice.  I  have  heard  it  stated — as  a  matter  of  fact,  take  the 
Iroquois  Theater  in  Chicago — that  was  a  fireproof  building,  but  more 
people  were  lost  there  than  on  the  General  Slocum;  I  have  heard  it 
stated  that  the  proportion  was  greater. 

Mr.  Croker.  The  people  were  lost  by  panic.  There  were  only  12 
of  the  audience  that  the  flames  came  near;  they  were  '^ smoked  up" — 
suffocated. 

The  Same  Voice.  But  their  lives  were  lost;  it  was  the  same  thing. 

The  Secretary.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Croker. 

Mr.  Magoun,  we  shall  be  glad  to  hear  from  you  if  you  care  to  express 
your  views. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  HENRY  A.  MAGOUN,   VICE   PRESIDENT,  NEW 
YORK  SHIPBUILDING  CO.,  CAMDEN,  N.  J. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  I  have  very  little  to  say.  A  ship- 
builder is  in  a  different  position  from  an  owner.  He  has  two  posi- 
tions, so  to  speak.  He  tries  to  build  what  is  given  to  him  to  build,  and 
at  other  times  he  both  designs  and  builds.  In  the  case  of  our  com- 
pany, we  have  built  some  of  the  boats  which  have  been  spoken  about 
here  to-day.  We  built  two  of  the  Hudson  Kiver  Day  Line  boats, 
and  one  of  the  Pennsylvania  ferryboats.  And  I  want  to  correct  any 
impression  there  may  be  that  the  owners  are  not  anxious  and  trying 
to  do  all  they  can  to  prevent  fire.  All  owners  I  have  had  to  deal 
with  are  anxious  to  do  so  as  far  as  the  state  of  the  art  gives  them 
any  knowledge  of  how  to  do  it.  We  are  constantly  changing  and 
improving,  and  the  shipbuilder  is  always  willing  to  do  all  he  can,  so 
far  as  his  knowledge  goes,  to  help  the  owners. 

It  is  very  true  that  it  is  impossible  to  make  a  rule  which  can  be 
universally  applied  to  all  vessels.  We  have  so  many  different  kinds 
of  vessels,  as  well  as  of  construction,  that  I  do  not  know  how  it  can 
be  done.  The  suggestion  of  appointing  a  committee  is  probably  the 
most  practicable  way  to  accomplish  anything.  It  has  been  stated 
to-day,  referring  to  construction  on  the  Lakes,  that  no  passenger 
boats  were  being  built.  It  is  about  the  same  thing  in  all  the  yards 
on  the  coast.     They  are  building  all  kinds  of  freight  vessels. 

The  owners  are  keenly  alive  to  the  possibility  of  fire  and  are  doing 
aU  that  they  can  to  prevent  it.     I  may  mention  one  thing.     We 


33 


frequently  speak  of  a  fireproof  structure.  I  have  always  been  brought 
up  to  believe  it  was  perhaps  an  impossibility.  If  the  thing  itself  is 
fireproof,  the  contents  are  not.  The  first  iniormation  I  ever  had  on 
the  subject  came  from  Edward  Atkinson,  who  explained  the  slow- 
burning  principle  at  great  length.  It  is  our  practice  to  make  them 
slow  burning. 

The  Seceetary.  Gentlemen,  the  time  for  luncheon  has  come.  We 
have  had  a  very  frank  discussion.  I  think,  although  it  is  a  ''town 
meeting,"  we  have  managed  to  have  some  very  frank  talk,  and  I  hope 
we  shaU  have  more.  "W^at  I  should  like  to  have  happen  this  after- 
noon is  to  have  you  select  a  committee — I  do  not  want  to  select  it — 
to  have  you  select  a  committee  which  may  cooperate  with  the  Depart- 
ment, very  much  as  the  committees  of  the  technical  societies  of  which 
I  spoke  are  doing  all  the  time,  and  make  a  more  or  less  continuous 
study  of  this  matter. 

We  have  an  example  here  of  the  value  of  such  a  committee.  The 
motor-boat  law  of  this  country  is  about  as  bad  as  it  can  be.  If  I  got 
started  to  talking  of  the  faults  of  the  motor-boat  laws  you  would 
never  get  any  lunch;  but  we  had  a  conference  just  like  this,  perhaps 
the  father  of  this.  We  went  into  all  the  ends  and  comers  and  sides 
of  the  motor-boat  business;  and  the  bill  which  is  pending  in  Congress 
is  unanimously  supported  by  the  motor-boat  people.  It  arose  out  of 
a  conference  and  out  of  the  labors  of  that  committee,  which  chewed 
the  subject  over  for  many  months  and  ended  by  unanimous  agree- 
ment. Their  report  did  not  embody  the  extreme  things  some  of 
them  desired,  but  they  got  together,  in  a  common-sense,  practical 
way,  on  what  was,  after  all,  a  very  considerable  advance. 

That,  I  think,  we  might  accomplish  here;  and  so,  before  we  meet 
again — I  would  suggest  2.30  p.  m.,  if  that  is  not  too  early  or  too 
late  for  you — let  us  think  that  over  and  see  if  we  can  this  afternoon 
get  a  committee  appointed  without  any  rigid  rules — a  committee 
which  can  add  to  its  number  as  freely  as  it  desires  and  can  do  any- 
thing it  chooses  on  the  subject — and  at  least  get  a  start.  We  want 
such  a  committee  to  guide  us  against  making  mistakes.  We 
need  to  be  guided  against  mistakes  as  much  as  anybody  else — if  we 
beheve  the  newspapers,  more  so — and  we  will  try  not  to  make  any 
more  mistakes  in  the  matter  than  that  committee  will  let  us. 

(Thereupon,  at  12.37  p.  m.,  the  conference  was  adjourned  until 
2.30  p.  m.) 


AFTERNOON  SESSION  (2.30  O'CLOCK). 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Goodrich,  your  name  was  mentioned  this 
morning,  and  we  would  like  very  much  to  get  upon  the  record  a 
statement  of  your  experience  in  protecting  the  vessels  of  your  com- 
pany from  fire,  especially  with  the  automatic  sprinklers  you  are  using. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  We  have  some  steamers  equipped  with  the  auto- 
matic sprinkler  system,  known  as  the  dry-pipe  system.  The  others 
are  equipped  with  open-head  sprinklers.  They  are  arranged  in 
groups — rather  a  crude  affair. 

The  Secretary.  When  you  speak  of  open  sprinklers  you  refer  to 
those  manually  opened,  I  suppose  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes;  by  a  valve  in  the  engine  room,  and  the  valve 
permits  the  water  to  flow  through  a  given  number  of  heads  at  the 
same  time,  covering  a  given  area. 

The  SECRETARY'.  You  say  it  is  the  dry-pipe  system. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  We  could  not  use  anything  else  because  some  of 
the  boats  we  have  operate  the  year  around.  In  weather  such  as  we 
have  on  Lake  Michigan,  it  being  frequently  several  degrees  below 
zero,  anything  that  contained  water  would  be  useless. 

The  Secretary.  Where  do  you  carry  your  reserve  water  supply  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  We  do  not  carry  any. 

The  Secretary.  You  do  not  carry  any  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  No,  sir;  not  for  the  sprinkler  system. 

The  Secretary.  You  carry  air  pressure  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  The  air  pressure  in  the  pipes  of  the  automatic 
sprinkler  system  is  maintained  by  a  small  air  compressor.  When 
the  pressure  is  relieved  by  a  sprinkler-head  opening  the  pump  con- 
nected with  it  starts  pumping  automatically.  There  is  always  steam 
on  it  and  generally  is  in  motion,  moving  very  slowly.  The  other 
pumps  intended  for  pumping  water  on  the  boat  are  so  connected  that 
they  can  be  thrown  into  the  sprinkler  system. 

The  Secretary.  So  that  you  depend  upon  the  acceleration  of  the 
pump  to  supply  you  with  water  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  You  do  not  use  any  reserve  water  at  all  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  No,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  Has  there  been  any  occasion  for  the  system  to 
work  at  a  fire  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  We  never  had  a  fire  on  any  one  of  the  three  boats 
on  which  we  have  the  automatic  system.  We  have  tested  it  at  dif- 
ferent times  by  taking  a  torch  and  touching  off  a  head  just  to  see  the 
thing  work,  but  it  has  never  been  used  in  an  actual  fire  to  my  knowl- 

The  Secretary.  Did  it  work  when  you  tested  it  each  time  ? 
Mr.  Goodrich.  Oh,  yes. 

The  Secretary.  Your  largest  boat  is  the  GJiristopher  Columbus  f 
Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes,  sir. 

(34) 


35 

The  Secketary.  What  have  you  done  in  the  construction  of  the 
vessel  in  the  way  of  fireproof  materials  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  We  did  not  build  her.     We  bought  her. 

The  Secretary.  Where  was  she  built  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  At  Duluth,  or  really  at  West  Superior,  across  the 
harbor  from  Duluth. 

The  Secretary.  Has  she  no  special  appliances  for  fire  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  There  is  nothing  on  her  to  burn.  She  has  three 
heavy  steel  decks,  without  any  wood  on  them;  that  is,  her  main  deck 
has  no  wood  on  it,  the  deck  above  that  has  some  wood  finish,  and 
the  deck  above  that  has  a  wooden  floor  laid  upon  it,  a  light  wooden 
floor;  and  sprinkler  system. 

The  Secretary.  What  are  the  houses  made  of  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Wood. 

The  Secretary.  Have  you  used  any  bulkheads  to  restrict 

Mr.  Goodrich  (interrupting).  No;  there  is  nothing  in  her  at  all. 
Of  course  she  is  a  peculiarly  designed  thing.  Her  stairways  are  all 
isolated  in  steel  inclosures. 

The  Secretary.  Did  you  do  that  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  No  ;  that  was  there  originally. 

The  Secretary.  She  is  of  the  whaleback  type  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  If  you  were  to  build  another,  and  based  upon 
your  experience  with  her,  what  would  you  do  with  regard  to  restrict- 
ing fire  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  we  would  not  build  one,  to  start  with. 

The  Secretary.  What  I  want  to  get  at  is,  what  lessons  do  you 
think  can  be  learned  from  the  experience  with  the  vessel  as  regards 
fire-restricting  construction  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  do  not  know.  That  is  a  rather  unending  discus- 
sion. It  all  depends  upon  the  type  of  vessel  and  what  you  want  to 
accomplish  and  what  you  are  going  to  use  it  for;  where  she  is  going. 
So  many  things  enter  into  it  that  it  is  rather  difficult  to  answer 
offhand. 

The  Secretary.  Does  anyone  wish  to  ask  Mr.  Goodrich  a  question  ? 

Mr.  Myrick.  Mr.  Goodrich,  I  had  the  pleasure  of  seeing  your  ship 
the  AlabaTna,  I  think  it  is. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Myrick.  Would  you  be  good  enough  to  tell  us  about  her  con- 
struction ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Well,  in  what  respect? 

Mr.  Myrick.  In  all  respects  so  far  as  the  hull  is  concerned.  She 
has  steel  decks.     She  is  built  of  steel  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes,  sir. 

Mr.  Myrick.  She  has  two  steel  decks,  has  she  not  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes. 

Mr.  Myrick.  So  that  the  only  woodwork  you  have  practically, 
outside  of  that  down  below,  is  in  your  superstructure  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  That  is  aU.  She  is  all  steel  below.  There  is  no 
wood  below  the  main  deck.  Everything  below  the  main  deck  is 
steel.  The  main  deck  is  steel.  The  engine  room  is  in  a  steel  inclo- 
sure,  and  goes  up  about  30  inches  above  her  upper  deck  and  the  same 
around  the  smokestack  casing.  Then  she  is  automatically  sprinkled. 
AU  the  inside  staterooms  have  sprinkler  heads  in  them. 


36 

The  Secretary.  On  the  same  system  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Yes. 

The  Secretary.  Did  you  take  into  account  the  question  of  panic 
when  you  put  in  those  automatic  sprinklers  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  No.     Our  idea  was  to  save  the  boat  in  case  of  fire. 

The  Secretary.  Are  you  not  afraid  that  when  she  is  crowded 
with  passengers  some  day  there  may  be  great  excitement  from  the 
breaking  of  a  pipe  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  We  can  not  help  that.  We  can  not  guarantee 
everybody's  sanity.  We  simply  went  at  it  with  the  idea  of  saving 
the  boat  and  making  it  as  foolproof  as  possible.  That  is  why  we 
believe  in  the  automatic  sprinkler  as  against  the  open-head  sprinkler. 

The  Secretary.  So  far  as  the  system  is  concerned 

Mr.  Goodrich  (interrupting).  We  have  had  no  trouble  with  it. 
It  has  of  course  a  great  advantage  over  the  open-head  system  because 
of  the  smaller  quantity  of  water  required. 

Mr.  Bennett.  Mr.  Goodrich,  what  system  of  automatic  control 
have  you  for  the  sprinkler  heads  ? 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  the  company  that  did  the  work  was  the 
General  Fire  Extinguisher  Co.,  of  Chicago. 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  understood  from  Mr.  Goodrich  that  it  was  a  dry- 
pipe  system.  I  want  to  know  by  what  means  they  transmit  the 
water  back  to  the  place  where  they  operate  this 

Mr.  Goodrich  (mterrupting) .  By  the  hberation  of  the  pressure 
of  the  air.  When  the  head  opens  the  air  rushes  out  and  the  water 
follows  it. 

The  Secretary.  It  works  automatically, 

Mr.  Goodrich.  Just  the  same  as  any  dry-pipe  system  that  you 
put  in  an  unheated  building. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Benns,  have  you  any  suggestions? 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  CHARLES  P.  BENNS,  ASSISTANT  MANAGER 
UNDERWRITERS'  ASSOCIATION  OF  THE  DISTRICT  OF  COLUMBIA, 
WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  I  have  only  one  thought  that  occurs 
to  me  now  and  that  is,  that  on  land  a  great  deal  has  been  done  in  the 
way  of  fireproofing  and  of  fire  protection.  Many  lessons  have  been 
learned.  It  is  undoubtedly  not  possible  to  transfer  those  things 
bodily  to  the  marine  field.  Nevertheless,  I  befieve  that  the  funda- 
mental principles  are  the  same.  When  you  started  the  discussion 
this  morning,  Mr.  Secretary,  you  spoke  of  the  work  of  Mr.  Atkinson, 
who  not  only  formulated  the  problem  as  you  outlined  it  but  who 

Proceeded  along  very  definite  lines  under  each  one  of  those  particular 
eads.  In  the  first  place,  for  the  prehminarv  extinguishment  of  the 
fire,  or  rather,  we  may  say,  that  the  fire  might  not  occur,  he  used  to 
the  extreme  the  good  housekeeping  that  Chief  Croker  spoke  about. 
In  order  that  the  fire  might  not  spread,  he  did  away  entirely  with  the 
construction  which  called  for  concealed  places,  making  everything 
of  solid  wood  and  the  exposed  surfaces  smooth,  so  far  as  was  humanly 
possible,  and  if  the  fire  did  start  and  did  spread  he  applied  the  auto- 
matic sprinkler  for  its  extinguishment  and  control. 

Those  same  things,  of  course,  apply  to  the  work  that  has  been  done 
on  shipboard  and  on  the  steamboats,  but  my  thought  is  that  it  would 
be  most  unfortunate  to  attempt  to  take  the  sprinkler  system  as  we 


37 

are  familiar  with  it  in  buildings  and  transfer  it  bodily  to  a  steamboat. 
The  questions  in  regard  to  reserve  water  supply,  the  questions  in 
regard  to  the  size  of  pipe — all  of  those  things  I  think  can  be  modified  ac- 
cording to  the  conditions  found  on  shipboard.  As  regards  the  question 
of  the  subdivision  of  the  vessel,  I  think  we  can  learn  a  good  deal  from 
the  conditions  of  the  subdivision  of  buildings,  but  no  one  of  course 
would  think  of  putting  up  a  terra  cotta  wall  on  board  ship  to  make 
the  division.  On  the  other  hand,  a  great  deal  of  experiment,  a  great 
deal  of  experience,  is  concentrated  in  what  we  know  now  as  standard 
tin-covered  fire  door;  that  is,  one  in  which  there  is  a  wooden  core, 
made  very  rigid,  very  smooth,  covered  with  tin  in  small  sheets.  Of 
course  those  things  are  all  details,  but  after  all  it  seems  too  bad  that 
our  marine  engineering  friends  are  still  experimenting  with  woodwork, 
with  large  sheets  that  are  insufficiently  fastened  to  the  wood  and 
which  are  absolutely  necessary,  judged  by  the  experience  on  shore, 
to  the  protection  of  the  wood. 

The  Secretary.  How  do  you  fasten  those  sheets  together  ?  Are 
they  not  crimped,  and  nailed  under  the  crimps  ? 

Mr.  Benns.  Yes.  As  you  suggested  this  morning,  the  sheets  are 
so  arranged  that  you  get  naihng  all  over  the  surface.  The  forerunner 
of  that  was  the  single  sheet.  Tne  single  sheet  had  to  be  of  appreciable 
thickness  in  order  to  enable  it  to  be  nailed  and  not  have  the  nails 
tear  through.  That  door  has  stood  all  sorts  of  fires.  It  has  been 
improved.  I  suppose  that  that  standard  metal-covered  door  has 
been  experimentea  with  for  the  last  20  years  and  is  used  for  openings 
up  to  approximately  8  or  9  feet  square.  We  think  we  have  got  a 
pretty  good  method  of  closing  that  particular  kind  of  opening.  It 
seems  as  though  it  ought  to  be  possible  to  extend  that  fundamental 
principle  to  the  making  of  a  bulkhead  across  a  vessel  which  would 
not  be  excessively  heavy  and  which  would  resist  the  fire  that  it  may 
be  subjected  to. 

My  thought  is  that  in  the  formation  of  this  committee  that  is  imder 
discussion  to-day  there  should  be  some  member  that  will  serve  as  a 
very  close  fine  of  connection  between  the  experience  of  the  under- 
writers in  taking  care  of  fire  risks  on  shore  and  the  skiU  and  experience 
of  the  marine  designers  and  those  that  are  altogether  more  competent 
to  judge  of  that  side  of  the  question. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Benns,  am  I  correct  in  recaUing  that  it  is 
considered  good  practice  to  keep  those  doors  bright  and  not  have 
them  painted  ? 

Mr.  Benns.  I  befieve  they  are  not  laying  as  great  stress  upon 
that  now  as  was  formerly  the  case.  Of  course,  I  think  it  is  quite 
well  recognized  that  fire  wiU  flash  over  a  painted  surface.  Chief 
Croker  spoke  this  morning  of  fire-resisting  paint.  It  occurs  to  me 
that  many  times  in  repairing  a  building  that  has  been  subjected  to 
fire  we  simply  ask  that  the  charred  surface  of  it  be  scraped  off  and 
then  give  it  a  coat  of  whitewash.  Under  ordinary  conditions  the  pres- 
ence of  that  whitewash  wiU  not  make  it  as  liable  to  fire  as  if  it  was 
exposed. 

The  Secretary.  I  thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Benns.  Does  any- 
one want  to  ask  Mr.  Benns  an^^  questions  ? 

Mr.  French,  you  are  the  chief  surveyor  of  Lloyd's  Register  of 
Shipping  ? 

Mr.  French.  Yes,  sir. 


38 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  JAMES  FRENCH,  CHIEF  SURVEYOR  OF  LLOYD'S 
REGISTER  OF  SHIPPING,  NEW  YORK,  N.  Y. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  the  subject  before  us  appeals  to  me 
both  from  a  public  and  from  a  naval  architect's  point  of  view,  and 
from  the  latter  viewpoint  the  question  is  certainl}^  fraught  with 
difficulties. 

I  would  like  to  say  straight  off  that  I  do  not  think  it  is  possible  to 
design  any  vessel  to  be  both  practical  and  fireproof,  but  at  the  same 
time  we  can  go  a  long  way  toward  minimizing  the  danger  and  spread 
of  fire  by  adopting  methods  of  fire  fighting  and  fire  resisting. 

Of  the  vessels  at  present  under  discussion  I  consider  that  quite  a 
different  standard  should  apply  to  the  Lake  or  Sound  type  of  boats 
which  carry  a  large  number  of  passengers  throughout  the  night  as 
compared  with  dayhght  excursion  and  similar  class  of  steamers  which 
are  never  far  from  land  and  where  practically  every  part  of  the  vessel 
is  under  almost  constant  observation  by  some  one  or  other. 

The  question  of  sprinklers  and  fire-fighting  appHances  has  been 
discussed  pretty  fully,  and  I  consider  a  great  deal  can  be  done  toward 
securing  quite  reasonable  safety  in  this  latter  type  of  vessel  by  such 
means.  In  the  former  type  I  consider  the  actual  design  of  the  vessel 
should  be  made  to  some  extent  subservient  to  a  system  of  fire -resisting 
bulkheads,  so  as  to  limit  the  spread  of  any  outbreak  which  for  the 
time  being  might  get  beyond  control  of  the  fire  fighters,  due  to  its 
not  being  detected  in  time. 

In  a  discussion  of  this  sort  there  is  so  much  to  say  and  so  manji 
to  say  it  that  I  fear  we  can  only  generalize,  but  I  have  no  doubt  that 
if  a  committee  is  formed,  as  suggested,  representative  of  naval 
architects,  owners,  sprinkler  engineers,  and  others  tentative  recom- 
mendations could  very  well  be  drawn  up  with  every  possibility  of 
arriving  at  something  which,  while  not  fireproof,  might  approach  it. 

The  Secretary.  That  is  a  very  comforting  thought,  Mr.  French, 
coming  from  a  man  of  your  experience. 

Mr.  French.  The  whole  subject  wiU  require  careful  thought  and 
must  eventually  result  in  a  compromise  between  the  safety  of  the 
traveling  public  and  their  comfort  while  traveling.  I  think  your 
committee  must  bear  this  in  mind  and  when  they  have  elucidated 
everything  of  value  from  our  present  discussion  and  added  to  it 
from  their  further  experience,  it  might  be  presented  in  the  form  of  a 
concise  report  for  still  further  discussion. 

The  Secretary.  Have  another  conference  later. 

Mr.  French.  Yes;  it  would  be  impossible  for  a  conference  of  this 
size  to  draw  up  such  a  report. 

The  Secretary.  Your  idea  would  be  to  have  the  committee  think 
this  thing  over  and  then  come  together  later. 

Capt.  Phinney,  is  it  not  a  fact  mat  a  wooden,  standard,  tin-covered 
door  such  as  is  standard  with  the  Associated  Factory  Mutual  Fire 
Insurance  Cos.  resists  fire  very  much  longer  than  a  steel  or  iron  door? 

Capt.  Phinney.  By  far.  We  have  nothing  that  will  compare 
with  it,  as  this  gentleman  has  said,  in  our  experience,  nothing  at  all, 
and  we  do  not  accept  steel  doors. 

The  Secretary.  In  other  words,  this  standard  fire  door  you 
would  accept  and  do  accept  while  you  would  not  accept  a  steel  door. 

Capt.  Phinney.  We  accept  it  even  in  the  center  of  a  fire  cut-off 
wall.     We  know  that  fire  wiU  not  pass  through  that  opening  if  it  is 


39 

well  equipped  with  a  standard  fire  door,  and  especially  if  there  are 
two  doors,  one  on  each  side  of  the  opening,  which  we  always  require 
where  values  are  large. 

We  have  had  some  little  unfortunate  experiences  with  the  rolling 
steel  door.  We  were  rather  captivated  with  that  at  first,  but  recent 
occurrences  have  shown  that  we  can  not  place  too  much  dependence 
on  it  when  the  exposure  is  very  severe.  The  tin-covered  fire  door  is 
clumsy,  not  very  heavy,  but  tnere  is  nothing  we  know  of  at  present 
that  will  equal  it. 

The  Secretary.  It  has  been  tested  out  in  very  many  cases. 

Capt.  Phinney.  Yes,  a  great  many  years. 

The  Secretary.  I  remember  my  own  experience  of  having  a  heavy 
brick  wall  between  two  factories  and  you  allowed  me  to  cut  a  hole 
in  it.  The  door  was  very  inexpensive  to  maintain,  as  I  recall  it, 
but  quite  thick. 

Capt.  Phinney.  Yes. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Gillette,  I  have  not  called  upon  any  one  of 
our  Department  friends  before  to-day  so  I  would  like  now  to  have 
your  views.  Mr.  Gillette  is  Superintendent  of  Naval  Construction 
of  the  Bureau  of  Lighthouses. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  E.  C.  GILLETTE,  SUPERINTENDENT  OF  NAVAL 
CONSTRUCTION,  BUREAU  OF  LIGHTHOUSES,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

I  do  not  know  that  I  have  very  much  to  say  in  this  matter.  My 
experience  in  our  Bureau  is  not  along  the  passenger  line,  as  you 
know;  but  in  lightship  and  tender  construction  we  have  made  a 
considerable  effort  to  provide  against  fires.  At  the  present  time  we 
have  one  or  two  vessels  under  construction  where  we  are  using  sheet 
steel  for  interior  bulkheads  with  very  good  success,  although  their 
weight  is  in  excess  of  what  they  would  be  in  wood.  In  one  ligjit 
vessel  we  are  using  an  inside  ceiling  for  protection  against  sweating, 
a  protected  metal,  sample  of  which  is  in  the  Secretary's  hands,  which 
is  a  galvanized-iron  sheet  covered  with  asbestos  on  each  side.  I 
believed  that  would  answer  the  purpose  intended  and  take  paint  a 
little  better.  It  is  deemed  better  not  to  have  bare  metal  exposed  in 
the  living  quarters.  In  one  of  our  vessels  building  on  the  west  coast 
we  are  putting  in  steel  bulkheads  throughout,  as  the  crew  will  not 
be  very  large  and  as  we  shaU  carry  inflammable  cargoes  such  as  ^as 
tanks,  cases  of  oil,  etc.,  and  the  vessel  also  wiU  bum  oil  under  its 
boilers  for  fuel. 

The  Secretary.  How  high  do  the  bulkheads  come  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  Above  the  main  deck.  Except  in  the  living  quar- 
ters the  bulkheads  are  aU  of  heavy  steel,  three-sixteenths  inch  plate. 
In  the  living  quarters  it  is  of  lighter  construction,  stiffened  with  plate 
pilasters,  angles,  etc. 

The  Secretary.  Are  there  any  wooden  houses  on  the  vessel  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  No,  sir;  the  only  wood  on  the  vessel  is  the  upper 
deck  and  the  tops  of  the  houses.  We  thought  best  to  put  wood  in 
these  places  on  account  of  the  heat.  In  exposed  places  where  the 
sun  is  hot  a  steel  deck  is  almost  unbearable — in  the  case  of  turtle- 
back  vessels  in  the  South  it  is  the  same — it  is  almost  unbearable  to 
live  in,  and  for  that  reason  we  put  on  a  wooden  deck  and  paint  it  weU. 


40 

The  Secretary.  You  designed  the  new  Coast  Survey  steamer  Sur- 
veyor, now  building.     What  did  you  do  on  that  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  I  assisted  in  the  design  of  this  vessel.  On  that  ves- 
sel there  is  no  sprinkler  system.  They  rely  on  the  fire  pump  and 
mains  and  steam-smothering  system  throughout  the  vessel,  it  has 
steel  main  and  lower  decks  and  the  upper  deck  is  of  wood.  The 
vessel  is  of  a  modern  type  of  construction. 

The  Secretary.  But  the  construction  of  the  new  Cedar  you  spoke 
of  was  exceptional  because  of  the  inflammable  nature  of  the  cargo 
she  carried. 

Mr.  Gillette.  Yes;  it  is  for  use  in  charging  gas  buoys,  carrying 
gas  buoys,  gas  tanks,  oil,  etc.,  and  supplies  for  the  Lighthouse  Service. 
There  might  be  a  possibility  of  a  severe  fire  on  this  vessel  and  we 
wanted  to  be  able  to  cope  with  it  to  the  best  advantage,  under  all 
occasions,  and  was  so  considered  in  the  preparation  of  the  design. 

The  Secretary.  Do  you  regard  that  as  substantially  fireproof  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  Not  absolutely,  but  better  than  other  vessels  of  this 
Service.  I  think  some  of  the  gentlemen  brought  out  this  morning 
that  the  personal  equation  is  one  of  the  most  important  things  in  the 
matter  oi  fire  on  shipboard.  A  weU-discipHned  crew  properly  sta- 
tioned and  trained  by  actual  tests  and  drills  held  at  regular  intervals 
is  one  of  the  most  important  things  in  the  whole  matter.  We,  of 
course,  hold  fire  and  boat  driUs  at  intervals  of  one  month  at  least,  in 
the  Lighthouse  Service,  which  is,  I  believe,  in  accordance  with  the 
practice  of  the  Navy,  and  I  think  also  of  other  departments.  So 
if  the  men  are  properly  stationed,  each  man  has  his  own  particular 
duty  to  perform  and  knows  what  to  do. 

The  Secretary.  Thank  you  very  much. 

The  Secretary.  Capt.  McGray,  what  have  you  to  say  to  us  ? 

STATEMENT    OF    CAPT.    ARTHUR    N.    McGRAY,    REPRESENTATIVE 
OF  NEPTUNE  ASSOCIATION,  NEW  YORK  CITY. 

Mr.  Secretary.  My  attention  was  called,  I  think,  by  the  first 
speaker  this  morning,  Mr.  Taylor,  when  he  was  describing  the  Hud- 
son River  passenger  boats,  to  steamers  in  general  as  floating  hotJels. 
I  was  impressed  at  once  by  the  fact  that  he  only  told  a  smaU  part  of 
the  story.  The  bulk  of  the  great  passenger-carrying  ship  of  to-day, 
without  any  question,  is  a  floating  warehouse  filled  with  all  kinds  of 
material  upon  which  is  superimposed  a  hotel — three,  four,  or  five 
stories  of  warehouse  and  tnen  two,  three,  or  four  stories  of  hotel 
accommodation — which  makes  considerable  of  a  large  problem  to 
deal  with.     Of  course,  that  is  extreme ;  that  is  the  limit. 

And  so,  Mr.  Secretary,  when  I  received  your  much-appreciated 
invitation  to  attend  this  hearing  I  thought  it  might  be  a  good  plan  to 
see  what  some  other  people  had  found  out  about  fires  on  shipboard 
and  what  relation  they  have  to  fires  on  shore,  which  naturallj^  have 
received  a  good  deal  more  attention  from  scientific  authorities  on 
account  of  the  greater  number  of  them  than  has  been  the  case  on 
shipboard.  I  thought  I  would  look  into  that  somewhat  and  see,  in 
the  limited  time  at  my  disposal,  how  much  I  could  learn  that  might 
bear  upon  this  point.  As  I  can  perhaps  read  better  than  I  can 
speak  offhand,  with  your  permission  I  will  read  what  I  have  got 
together. 


41 

(Reading.) 

Secretary  Redfield's  letter,  asking  me  to  be  present  at  this  time, 
stated  that  the  primary  purpose  of  the  meeting  was  to  consider  the 
whole  subject  of  making  passenger  vessels  more  secure  from  destruc- 
tion by  fire.  I  do  not  understand  that  the  discussion  is  to  be  limited 
to  those  p^senger  vessels  which  carry  no  freight  at  all,  and  I  cer- 
tainly hope  such  is  not  the  case,  because  it  seems  to  me,  as  a  ship- 
master who  has  had  experience  with  the  matter  of  fighting  fii-es  afloat, 
that  it  is  among  that  great  class  of  combination  passenger  and  cargo 
steamers  that  the  danger  is  greatest  and  where  fire  protection  is 
most  needed. 

Most  passenger  vessels,  as  a  matter  of  fact,  are  also  freight  carriers 
to  a  greater  or  lesser  degree,  except  in  the  case  of  purely  excursion 
steamers,  and  it  would  seem  that  any  protection  «,gainst  fire  devised 
for  a  combination  of  freight  and  passenger  boat  would  also  be  the 
best  kind  of  protection  for  the  purely  passenger  vessel. 

I  well  remember  a  number  of  fires  in  the  bulk  sulphur  cargoes 
of  the  steamers  Herman,  FrascTi,  and  Frieda  during  my  command  of 
those  ships.  Theoretically,  the  best  means  of  extinguishing  a  sul- 
phur fire  is  for  a  shovel  brigade  to  heap  on  more  sulphur  and  smother 
the  fire.  This  plan,  however,  works  poorly  in  practice,  as  it  is  impos- 
sible to  know  exactly  what  is  happening  underneath,  and  the  con- 
finement of  the  gases,  which  generate  very  rapidly  when  sulphur 
begins  to  fuse,  presents  an  explosive  menace  which  it  were  well  to 
avoid.  I  have  used  steam  jets  from  the  standard  fire-smothering 
equipment  of  the  ship  on  several  occasions,  but  to  little  or  no  pur- 
pose. The  liberal  use  of  water  has  been  the  only  adequate  answer 
I  have  discovered  so  far,  but  on  two  occasions  this  involved  entering 
a  hold  filled  with  strong  sulphurous  fumes  in  order  to  direct  the 
hose  effectively.  The  risk  to  be  incurred  appeared  greater  than  I 
felt  justified  in  ordering  officers  or  crew  to  accept,  so  the  only  road 
open  was  to  personallj|^  handle  both  hose  and  nozzle.  I  was  im- 
pressed at  this  time  with  the  fact  that  it  was  not  my  boat  itself 
which  was  burning  or  which  was  in  imminent  danger,  but  that  it 
was  the  cargo  within  that  boat. 

In  looking  into  this  matter,  I  have  been  strongly  impressed  with 
the  fact  that  it  is  the  cargo  or  the  contents  of  a  boat  that  deserves 
the  chief  consideration.  In  his  book,  Fire  and  Fire  Fighters,  former 
Chief  Kenlon,  of  New  York,  presents  in  a  striking  way  the  nature  of 
steamer  cargoes,  by  giving  the  following  description  of  freight  on  a 
New  York  pier: 

Fill  these  sheds  with  every  sort  of  combustible  material  imaginable — ^hogsheads 
of  rosin,  bales  of  cotton,  crated  furniture,  barrels  of  pitch,  stacks  of  dry  goods,  and 
such  unconsidered  trifles  as  a  few  boxes  of  celluloid  toys  and  novelties — and  can 
the  mind  of  man  conceive  a  collection  of  heterogeneous  merchandise  more  calculated 
to  provide  the  wherewithal  for  a  conflagration  and  matter  to  assuage  the  thirsty  pens 
of  all  the  newspaper  reporters  in  the  town? 

All  of  this  material  was  simply  the  cargo  of  boats  which  had  not 
yet  been  loaded.  To  a  greater  or  lesser  degree,  many  of  our  pas- 
senger-carrying ships  have  cargoes  of  a  similar  nature,  and  I  am 
of  the  opinion  that  such  cargoes  as  a  whole  are  in  the  last  analysis 
as  dangerous  as  the  most  dangerous  part  of  them.  I  think  I  am 
right  in  saying  that  the  insurance  people  in  making  a  rate  on  a 
building  on  shore  would  select  as  a  part  of  that  rate  the  most  haz- 


42 

ardous  occupancy  in  the  building.  I  am  also  further  impressed  that 
only  by  a  full  consideration  of  the  expert  findings  of  fire  insurance 
experts  and  architectural  designers  on  land  can  we  best  inform  our- 
selves as  to  the  most  practicable  and  efficient  manner  of  successfully 
deahng  with  fire-prevention  problems  on  shipboard. 

The  result  of  a  fire  on  board  ship  is  so  well  known  that  it  would 
hardly  seem  necessary  to  dwell  on  the  f rightfulness  of  such  an  occur- 
rence, but  in  Chief  Kenlon's  book  there  is  an  account  of  the  burning 
of  the  steamship  Saale,  which  it  seems  to  me  is  worth  repeating,  in 
order  that  we  may  have  this  picture  clearly  before  us: 

The  Saale,  in  the  very  heart  of  the  flames,  was  cast  loose  and  drifted  slowly  into 
the  stream,  a  menace  to  shipping  and  a  veritable  funeral  pyre  to  those  on  board. 
Hundreds  of  desperate  creatures  jumped  overboard  and  were  picked  up  by  passing 
boats;  but  hundreds  of  others  were  less  lucky  and  were  roasted  to  death  m  the  depths 
of  that  floating  inferno.  Little  could  be  seen  of  their  plight,  but  as  fire  boats  sur- 
rounded the  smoking  hull,  faint  cries  from  the  lower  ports  attracted  attention.  Sud- 
denly a  naked  arm  shot  out  through  the  murk,  and  a  voice  cracked  with  terror 
screamed  for  help.  Rescuers  placed  a  hose  line  in  the  grasp  of  the  quivering  hand, 
and  as  the  water  brought  temporary  relief,  the  crazed  sufferer  was  understood  to 
say  that  with  him  were  forty-odd  men  and  women  awaiting  their  doom.  A  des- 
perate effort  was  made  to  haul  him  through  the  port,  but  his  shoulders  prevented 
his  escape,  and  even  as  he  was  making  one  supreme  effort  to  dodge  death,  a  wisp 
of  flame  shot  wickedly  out  from  behind  him  and  branded  him  with  its  fiery  tongue. 
With  a  shriek  of  demoniacal  laughter,  he  surrendered  himself  to  his  agony,  and  fell 
back — to  be  seen  no  more. 

We  are  here  to  devise  ways  and  means  for  preventing  the  recurrence 
of  such  harrowing  scenes  as  Chief  Kenlon  has  described.  The  boat 
he  mentions  was  burning  thus  fiercely  primarily  because  her  contents 
were  inflammable.  But  boats  can  not  pick  and  choose  their  freight 
cargoes. 

In  addition  to  these  fire  dangers  in  the  contents  of  a  boat,  we  must 
remember  that  the  living  quarters  of  such  vessels  also  have  fire  dan- 
gers of  their  own,  which  are  most  comparable,  perhaps,  to  the  hazards 
of  a  hotel  on  shore.  We  should  therefore  bear  m  mind  that  fires  in 
hotels  are  of  very  frequent  occurrence.  For  instance,  on  the  first  day 
of  1913,  five  hotels  were  destroyed,  with  a  loss  of  two  lives  and 
$100,000.  The  total  amount  of  fires  in  such  properties  durmg  the 
month  of  January  of  that  year  was  $700,000.  In  fact,  it  is  estimated 
that  during  the  last  five  years  fire  losses  in  hotels  in  the  United  States 
and  Canada  have  been  $25,000,000 — on  the  average,  one  hotel  burn- 
ing up  every  33  hours.  (These  figures  are  from  Chief  Kenlon  s  book, 
pp.  170-171.) 

A  boat  is  happily  removed,  except  when  in  port,  from  the  danger 
of  spreading  fires  such  as  a  building  is  subject  to,  and  this  is  another 
reason  why  it  seems  to  me  that  what  we  should  chiefly  be  interested 
in  is  the  means  of  guardmg  against  fires  which  start  in  the  contents 
of  our  ships.  I  believe  it  is  well  known  that  the  values  on  land  and 
the  losses  on  land  by  fire  are  chiefly  in  the  contents  of  buildiags.  In 
the  Spectator  Year  Book  for  1914  may  be  foimd  the  following  figures: 


Year. 

Insurance 
in  force. 

T,(KS,  build- 
ing. 

Loss,  con- 
tents. 

1912 

$100 
100 

$1.48 
1.00 

$17. 17 

1913 

8.93 

43 

This,  of  course,  represents  millions  of  dollars  of  fires  reduced  to  a 
SI 00  unit  for  the  sake  of  comparison. 

I  am  prompted  to  go  further  into  this  matter  of  the  danger  of  con- 
tents, because  I  noted  in  the  Secretary's  report  several  references  to 
fireproof  construction.  As  a  former  shipmaster,  I  am  deeply  inter- 
ested in  how  it  is  possible  to  escape  this  danger  of  serious  fires  in 
cargoes  by  means  of  any  change  in  the  construction  of  vessels. 

Chief  Kenlon's  book  and  this  reference  to  fireproof  construction 
set  me  to  looking  into  the  matter  of  contents  and  fireproof  construc- 
tion. I  am  not  an  engineer,  and  the  points  I  shall  raise  are  merely 
statements  of  men  who  have  studied  the  subject.  I  raise  them  in 
an  effort  to  get  information  and  to  encourage  full  discussion.  For 
instance,  the  late  1  .  C.  Moore,  prominent  insurance  statistician  and 
rate  maker,  who  I  believe  was  chiefly  responsible  for  the  present 
method  of  making  insurance  rates,  says  of  fireproof  construction : 

The  fireproof  structure,  as  already  stated,  holds  its  merchandise  and  other  contents 
suspended  where  they  will  be  the  more  effectually  destroyed. 

A  further  reason  why  the  contents  of  fireproof  buildings  are  so  thoroughly  destroyed 
when  once  ignited,  is  that  the  fireproof  construction,  like  a  reverberating  furnace 
or  oven,  confines  the  heat  until  extremely  high  temperatures  are  reached.  The  prin- 
cipal advantage  after  all,  therefore,  of  a  fireproof  building  is  the  separation  of  the 
various  stories  from  each  other;  and  this  may  be  largely,  if  not  entirely  lost,  if  the 
building  has  well  holes,  like  the  Home  Building,  or  if  staircases  and  elevators 
are  not  cut  off  in  fireproof  hallways.  Architects  usually  overlook  the  fact  that  iron 
may  so  expand  under  heat  as  to  thrust  out  the  side  walls  of  a  building;  if,  indeed, 
iron  columns  do  not  collapse  under  their  weakened  capacity  to  resist  strains,  due 
to  high  temperature.  It  is  a  fact  that  wooden  columns,  especially  of  oak.  ]2  inches 
square,  would  stand  an  enormously  high  temperature  without  having  their  carry- 
ing capacity  interfered  with,  fire  only  burning  to  the  depth  of,  say,  2  inches. 

Indeed,  it  is  important  that  iron  should  be  protected  by  fireproof  materials  wherever 
used. 

How  on  shipboard  are  we  to  even  fireproof  the  steel  or  iron  parts 
of  a  boat,  as  pointed  out  in  the  last  paragraph  above.  More 
important,  how  can  we  expect  such  construction  as  is  possible 
of  being  designed  for  ships  to  protect  the  contents  of  those  ships? 
I  beUeve  that  the  fire  underwriters  maintain  that  each  floor  of  a 
building  must  be  cut  off  from  every  other  floor  by  fireproof  material; 
that  the  windows  of  such  structures  must  be  of  wire  glass  with 
metal  frames,  if  the  building  is  to  be  thoroughly  fireproof.  How 
do  we  propose  to  cut  off  the  decks  of  a  ship?  How  do  we  propose 
to  stop  fires  from  spreading  from  one  stateroom  to  another  through 
the  windows  ?  Would  an  insurance  rater  regard  the  ventilatiag  metn- 
ods  employed  on  most  ships  iq  the  same  way  that  he  would  regard 
openings  from  floor  to  floor  in  a  building?  J.  K.  Freitag,  in  his 
book.  Fire  Prevention  and  Fire  Protection,  says: 

As  a  matter  of  fact,  it  will  be  found  that  the  type  of  construction  will  make  little 
difference  in  insurance  costs,  for  the  following  reasons: 

(1)  The  value  of  contents  is  usually  far  greater  than  the  value  of  building. 

(2)  The  value  and  character  of  contents,  rather  than  the  t>T)e  of  construction, 
will  usually  determine  the  amount  of  fire  protection  necessary. 

(3)  Any  possible  saving  in  insurance  rates  which  might  be  effected  by  the  use 
of  concrete  construction  would  be  very  small  as  compared  with  the  total,  for  the 
reason  that  practically  all  fire  losses  to-day  in  mills  or  factories  of  standard  construction 
are  confined  to  contents,  and  insurance  rates  are  made  accordingly. 

Fire  protection,  viewed  in  its  broad  and  proper  light,  should  include  not  only  the 
passive  qualities  of  fire  resistance  in  design  and  construction,  but  also  those  active 
means  of  fire  detection  and  fire-fighting  appliances  which  go  so  far  to  supplement 
and  make  effective  the  purely  passive  elements  of  the  problem.  Fire  protection 
should  be  aggressive  as  well  as  purely  resistant. 


44 

Fire  protection  concerns  not  only  the  building  but  its  contents  as  well.  Damage 
to  contents  is  not  eliminated  by  simply  providing  an  incombustible  structure  for 
their  receipt.  Many  a  fire  has  spread  rapidly  and  spread  through  a  building  with 
ultimate  heavy  loss  in  stock  or  contents  but  with  comparatively  little  damage  to 
the  structure  itself. 

A  speaker  before  the  Structural  Section  Engineers  Society  of  West- 
ern Pennsylvania  made  this  comment  on  the  subject: 

A  competent  architect  in  his  city  figured  out  that  the  ordinary  office  building  about 
100  feet  front,  150  feet  deep,  and  12  stories  high  contains,  in  the  form  of  mixed  com- 
bustible material,  comprising  floors,  moldings,  door  and  window  frames,  partitions, 
stairs,  stair  rails,  and  similar  structural  parts,  enough  combustible  materials  to  run 
the  Mauretania  24  hours,  which  I  recall  burns  1,200  to  1,300  tons  of  coal  during  that 
period.  The  older  type  of  fireproof  office  buildings  will  probably  contain  50  per  cent 
more  combustible  material.  If  we  add  to  the  combustible  portions  of  the  building  the 
combustible  contents,  ranging  from  a  few  chairs  and  desks  to  a  dry  goods  store  stock, 
we  have  wonderful  heat-producing  possibilities. 

As  has  been  pointed  out,  a  good-sized  fire  will  produce  temperatures  of  from  1,800** 
to  2,000°  F.,  and  a  fire  which  has  a  particularly  large  amount  of  material  to  feed  it, 
and  good  draft  conditions,  will  develop  temperatures  up  to  2,200°.  Some  fires  are 
authentically  known  to  have  gone  higher  than  that.  When  we  consider  that  con- 
crete begins  to  dehydrate  at  500°,  and  that  steel  beyond  1,000°  to  1,200°  loses  its 
strength  rapidly,  and  at  about  1,700°  is  incapable  of  sustaining  its  own  weight,  it  is 
seen  that  a  temperature  around  2,000°  can  do  tremendous  damage  to  an  improperly 
designed  or  built  fireproof  building. 

The  furnace  is  fireproof  exactly  the  same  as  a  building  is  fireproof,  but  the  contents 
of  each  will  burn  fiercely  just  the  same  and  ofttimes  produce  many  million  dollars 
loss  and  untold  lives  to  be  sacrificed. 

In  view  of  the  existence  on  our  boats  of  burnable  material  in  the 
shape  of  contents,  and  in  view  of  the  statements  I  have  quoted  from 
underwriters  showing  the  inability  of  structural  material  to  take  care 
of  fires  originating  in  such  burnable  material,  it  seems  to  me  that  we 
must  look  fiu'ther  for  the  solution  of  our  problem  than  to  any  changes 
in  construction  alone,  valuable  as  they  may  be.  More  especially  is 
this  so  since  we  can  not  possibly  think  of  reconstructing  boats  already 
in  existence,  even  if  we  felt  that  such  reconstruction  would  solve  the 
difficulty.  The  boats  are  built;  they  are  running;  they  are  carrying 
priceless  cargoes  of  human  lives  above  burnable  cargoes  of  mer- 
chandise; many  of  them  are  themselves  inflammable.  What  is  to  be 
done  with  these  boats  ?  In  fact,  what  is  to  be  done  about  the  con- 
tents of  boats  built  in  future,  even  if  5  per  cent  to  10  per  cent  is  added 
to  their  cost  to  provide  the  best  fireproof  construction  ?  Will  this  con- 
struction remove  danger  in  proportion  to  its  added  cost,  or  is  some 
other  method  better  and  more  economical?  To  me,  it  seems  clear 
that  we  should  attack  this  problem  in  the  same  way  that  it  has  been 
attacked  by  large  manufacturers  and  merchants  on  land.  They  have 
found  that  the  only  way  to  make  the  contents  of  a  building  safe  is  to 
install  a  system  of  automatic  sprinklers. 

I  believe  most  of  the  gentlemen  present  are  familiar  with  the  Fac- 
tory Mutual  Insurance  Cos.,  and  know  that  the  most  hazardous  risks 
in  the  United  States  are  comprised  in  the  membership  of  those  organ- 
izations. Their  buildings,  for  the  most  part,  are  not  fireproof,  but 
are  made  of  brick  and  wood.  Here  we  find  cotton  mills,  woolen  mills, 
shoe  factories,  paper  mills,  metal-working  plants,  that  have  reduced 
their  fire  losses  through  automatic  sprinMers  to  less  than  5  cents  per 
$100  of  insurance. 

The  reports  of  these  companies  are  available  to  anyone  wishing  to 
see  them,  and  I  have  had  a  chance  to  see  statements  from  the  offi- 
cials of  these  companies  as  regards  the  possibility  of  applying  auto- 


4r) 

matic  sprinkler  protection  to  ships.  Practically  all  of  them  agree 
that  the  device  could  and  should  be  a  part  of  steamboat  equipment. 

I  believe  the  general  efficiency  of  automatic  sprinklers  in  buildings 
is  unquestioned;  but  I  doubt  if  most  men  know  that  since  1897  more 
than  17,000  fires  have  been  reported  to  the  insurance  companies  where 
sprinklers  were  effective.  This  probably  does  not  include  thousands 
of  fires  where  the  loss  was  so  small  as  not  to  be  reported.  These  fires 
occurred  for  the  most  part  in  extremely  dangerous  plants  with  large 
unbroken  areas.  Is  it  not  logical  to  suppose  that  on  a  ship,  with  its 
many  small  compartments,  the  record  would  be  even  more  remark- 
able? 

The  National  Fire  Protection  Association  of  Boston  publishes 
tables  on  these  sprinkler  fires.  The  tables  for  April,  1916,  show  that 
over  31  per  cent  of  all  the  17,000  fires  are  put  out  by  one  sprinkler 
head,  one  head  covering  as  a  rule  a  square  8  by  10  feet.  Seventy 
per  cent  of  the  fires  are  put  out  by  five  or  less  heads.  Taking  into 
account  the  kind  of  property  protected,  this  seems  to  me  a  wonderful 
record,  and  one  which  we  can  not  afford  to  overlook  in  dealing  with 
vessels.  Such  protection  stops  fires  in  contents  or  buildings  either. 
That  seems  to  me  the  big  point — sprinklers  will  stop  fires  starting  in 
freight  cargoes. 

In  addition,  the  sprinkler  gives  a  fire  alarm  when  it  starts  to  work, 
and  it  works  without  human  aid.  I  have  seen  several  boats  equipped 
with  sprinklers,  but  I  believe  some  of  those  equipments  are  not  en- 
tirely automatic,  which  is  too  bad,  because  the  chief  virtue  of  sprin- 
klers on  land  is  that  they  are  always  ready  to  begin  work  without 
human  aid. 

The  following  is  a  list  of  the  steamers  either  wholly  or  partially 
protected  by  sprinklers,  and  I  should  like  information  as  to  the  reasons 
why  shipowners  have  not  more  largely  made  use  of  this  apparatus: 

PARTIAL  LIST  OF   STEAMERS    EQUIPPED   WITH   SPRINKLERS. 

Alabama  (runs  between  Chicago  and  western  Michigan  ports). 

Bee  &  See  (partial). 

Bunker  Hill  (Metropolitan  Steamship  Line). 

City  of  Cleveland  (partial). 

Commonwealth  (N.  E.  Navigation  Co.). 

Casandra  (steam  yacht — New  London,  Conn,). 

Detroit  the  Third  (Detroit  &  Cleveland  Navigation  Co.), 

Fort  Sutton  (San  Francisco,  Cal.), 

Massachusetts  (Metropolitan  Steamship  Line). 

No.  1290  (of  the  Fall  River  Line,  N,  E.  Na\dgation  Co,). 

Pequannock  (freight  boat,  N.  E,  Navigation  Co,), 

Plymouth  (N,  E, "Navigation  Co.), 

Western  States  (Cleveland  &  Buffalo  Steamship  Co,). 

Indiana  (Goodrich  Transit  Co.), 

Imperator  (Hamburg- American  Line,  Mather  &  Piatt  equipment). 

Vaterland  (Hamburg- American  Line,  Mather  &  Piatt  equipment). 

It  has  been  my  personal  good  fortune  to  have  visited  or  to  have 
sailed  on  most  of  these  ships.  I  have  made  it  a  point  to  question  the 
officers  as  to  their  opinion  of  the  sprinkler  system,  and  with  such 
uniform  good  report  that  it  has  been  a  matter  of  satisfaction  to  note 
the  approval  on  April  8,  1916,  of  the  changes  in  Rule  IX,  Ocean  and 
Coastwise;  Rule  XI  of  Lakes,  Bays,  and  Sounds;  and  Rule  XI  of 
Rivers,  General  Rules  and  Regulations  of  the  Steamboat  Inspection 
Service. 


46 

In  my  opinion,  the  best  and  most  practical  method  of  fire  prevention 
on  shipboard,  and  that  involving  the  minimum  of  cost,  is  to  be  found 
in — 

(a)  Extending  all  water-tight  bulkheads  to  the  upper  deck. 

(h)  Isolating  each  deck  whenever  practicable  from  the  others  by 
means  of  water-tight  steel  hatches. 

(c)  The  installation  of  an  automatic  sprinkler  system  throughout 
the  ship. 

(d)  Metal  doors,  furniture,  and  partitions  in  passenger  accommo- 
dations. 

Passenger  ships  of  the  excursion  type  do  not  lend  themselves  to  this 
entire  combination  plan,  but  that  they  should  be  provided  with  an 
equipment  as  full  as  practicable  along  these  lines  is  without  question 
a  long  step  in  the  direction  of  prevention  of  their  destruction  by  fire. 

The  Secretary.  Does  anybody  present  desire  to  ask  Capt.  McGray 
any  questions  ? 

Mr.  Dobson,  you  represent  a  very  well-known  concern,  the  WilHam 
Cramp  &  Son  Ship  &  Engine  Building  Co.  I  shaU  be  glad  to  have 
your  views. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  WILLIAM  A.  DOBSON,  NAVAL  ARCHITECT, 
THE  WILLIAM  CRAMP  &  SON  SHIP  &  ENGINE  BUILDING  CO.,  PHIL- 
ADELPHIA, PA. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  as  has  already  been  referred  to  this 
morning  by  Mr.  Gatewood  and  Mr.  Magoun,  the  shipbuilder  stands 
ready  to  devote  aU  his  energies  and  resources  to  meeting  the  require- 
ments of  the  shipowner,  provided  these  requirements  are  within  the 
limits  of  possibility  and  that  the  owner  is  willing  to  meet  the  cost 
involved.  There  is  a  great  deal  that  has  already  been  done  in  retard- 
ing the  spread  of  fire  in  ships.  It  has  been  our  fortune  at  our  ship- 
yard to  build  one  of  the  vessels  referred  to  this  morning,  the  Common- 
wealth, where  we  have  seen  the  sprinkler  system  installed,  the  fitting 
of  screen  bulkheads  with  fire  doors,  and  the  cargo  spaces  sheathed 
with  steel.  I  beUeve  the  principles  there  worked  out  are  the  prin- 
ciples on  which  present  or  future  fire-retarding  work  must  be  de- 
veloped as  applied  to  passenger  vessels.  Of  course,  this  was  some 
years  ago,  and  since  then  we  have  had  the  advantage  of  advances 
and  development  in  types  of  material,  such  as  composite  board, 
which  can  now  be  made  fireproof.  We  have  also  a  very  good  material 
in  asbestos  board,  which  is  fireproof,  and  does  not  conduct  sound  as 
does  the  aU-steel  structure.  Besides,  it  is  more  pleasant  to  the  touch 
than  steel. 

The  Secretary.  Excuse  me.  Is  any  of  that  board  made  on  wire, 
as  wire  glass  is  made  ? 

Mr.  Dobson.  I  have  not  seen  any  of  it  so  made.  I  have  seen  it 
made  so  strong  and  stiff  that  it  stands  like  ordinary  lumber.  It  is 
sometimes  used  for  outside  sheathing,  but  it  is  heavy;  and  if  the 
shipowner  wants  to  have  a  ship  nearly  fireproof,  he  must  put  up  with 
such  disadvantages  as  increase  in  weight  and  cost.  On  a  passenger 
steamer  of  the  Sound  or  river  type,  when  draft  is  absolutely  limited, 
it  is  impossible  to  carry  so  much  heavy  material  in  her  construction; 
but  I  beUeve  a  ^eat  deal  can  be  done  by  development  along  the  lines 
of  the  installations  which  have  already  been  made  in  these  vessels 
referred  to.     The  cost,  of  course,  is  a  matter  which  concerns  the 


47 

shipowner,  and  sometimes  the  cost  of  introducing  certain  improve- 
ments would  be  so  great  that  a  boat  could  not  be  built  and  operated  at 
a  profit.  All  these  things  must  be  given  due  consideration;  but  I 
wish  to  assure  any  of  the  shipowners  that  the  shipbuilder  stands 
ready  at  all  times  to  cooperate  with  them  and  to  give  them  the  very 
best  service  possible.  Oi  course  when  we  undertake  a  problem  where 
something  novel  and  outside  the  known  art  is  required,  we  naturally 

fo  for  advice  to  speciahsts  in  the  particular  line  of  the  work  desired, 
'erhaps  it  might  be  in  ventilation;  it  might  be  fireproof  doors,  or  fire- 
proof construction.     We  very  gladly  avail  ourselves  in  such  cases  of 
the  advice  and  services  of  the  experts  who  make  a  specialty  of  such, 
lines  of  business. 

The  Secretary.  Is  Capt.  Blair  in  the  room  ?  We  have  not  heard 
anybody  as  yet  from  the  Mississippi  River  district.  Capt.  Blair  is 
general  manager  of  the  Northern  Steamboat  Co.,  Davenport,  Iowa. 

STATEMENT  OF  CAPT.  W.  A.  BLAIR,  GENERAL  MANAGER,lNORTH- 
ERN  STEAMBOAT  CO.,|DAVENPORT,  IOWA. 

Mr.  Secretary,  I  happen  to  be  the  only  one  connected  with  our  St. 
Louis  association  of  boat  owners  able  to  get  away.  This  is  our  busy 
time.  And  I  came  in  very  much  of  a  hurry  and  had  very  little  idea 
of  the  import  of  this  meeting;  but  I  am  glad  I  came.  It  opens  up 
to  me  what  I  think  is  a  school  of  instruction.  We  have  much  to 
learn.  I  have  rather  been  impressed  a  few  times  in  my  life  that 
steamboat  men  think  they  know  it  all.  It  is  very  evident  to  me  that 
we  have  not  learned  all  our  lessons  yet,  and  I  hope  through  this 
committee,  which  I  conclude  will  be  selected  to-day,  that  we  will  get  a 
lot  of  valuable  information  which  will  do  us  good  in  coming  years. 
We  want  the  right  thing,  and  we  have  all  had  enough  actual  experi- 
ence in  life  to  know  that  the  right  thing  is  the  cheapest  thing  in  the 
long  run. 

Our  type  of  steamboat — the  western — has  had  a  bad  name  from 
long  years  ago ;  and  then  when  Mr.  Hay  finished  it  off  with  that  poem 
about  Jim  Bledsoe,  ''She  Has  Had  Her  Nose  Agin'  the  Bank"  chasing 
us  ashore  ever  since  ''the  Night  of  the  Prairie  BeU,"  no  matter  how 
the  conditions  may  have  changed,  we  have  had  to  fight  that  old 
reputation,  and  people  while  coming  aboard  in  fear  and  trembling 
hope  that  they  will  get  there  aU  in  one  chunk,  neither  burnt  nor 
drowned.  This  feeling  is  not  borne  out  by  the  facts,  I  am  happy  to 
say,  because  the  situation  has  changed. 

There  were  a  good  many  boats  burned  in  the  years  when  the 
cargoes  were  nearly  all  highly  inflammable  material.  That  was  in 
the  busy  days,  in  the  palmy  days  we  read  about,  when  there  was  so 
much  racing,  a  time  when  stories  were  written  which  nearly  always 
wound  up  with  a  fire,  or  a  race  in  which  there  were  two  explosions  at 
least.  I  have  seen  some  racing  in  my  time.  I  have  yet  to  learn  of  a 
boat  that  blew  up  in  a  race.  I  have  been  36  years  in  the  business, 
actively  engaged,  and  I  have  never  seen  but  one  trifling  accident. 
The  Diamond  Jo  Line,  which  operated  many  boats  on  the  Mississippi 
River  for  35  years,  never  had  a  loss  by  fire.  The  Streckfus  Line,  which 
bought  out  the  Diamond  Jo  Line,  has  been  operating  for  several 
years,  and  under  their  management  they  have  not  had  a  fire.  They 
never  had  but  one  fire,  and  that  was  a  very  peculiar  one.     It  was  an 


4S 

excursion  boat  filled  with  people.  It  caught  fire  in  the  hold  and  they 
could  not  turn  on  the  steam  to  put  out  the  fire  without  cooking  the 
man  in  the  hold  who  started  the  fire.  They  landed  the  boat  without 
loss  or  injury  except  to  one  hysterical  woman  who  jumped  over  on  the 
deep  side. 

The  Eagle  Packet  Co.  has  been  in  successful  operation  for  many 
years.  They  never  lost  a  boat  by  fire,  except  one,  which  caught  fire  . 
from  another  boat  at  the  wharf  at  St.  Louis.  The  greater  proportion 
of  the  fires  that  have  occurred  during  my  time  have  been  on  boats 
tied  up  at  the  bank.  Of  vessels  burned,  for  some  strange  reason,  the 
fatality  seems  to  have  been  greatest  among  those  that  had  not  been 
doing  well  and  had  a  poor  future.  I  would  not  charge  those  men 
with  arson.  We  know  where  an  individual  is  not  doing  much 
business,  is  out  of  money  (they  are  a  plucky  lot  and  will  hang  on  as 
long  as  they  have  money  and  the  public  has  confidence  in  them),  he 
becomes  careless,  and  the  boat  burns.  That  is  the  history  of  most 
of  our  fires.  Among  those  who  are  active,  those  who  are  doing  any- 
thing like  a  prosperous  business  and  can  stay  in  the  game,  the  fire 
losses  have  been  so  small  and  infrequent  that  we  have  not  really 
thought  anything  about  it. 

But  there  is  another  reason  for  that,  the  improvement  in  the  in- 
spection service.  Mention  has  not  been  made  of  this,  I  believe.  In 
this  same  connection,  years  ago  when  the  fire  losses  occurred  on  the 
western  rivers,  many  'of  the  things  we  have  now  we  did  not  have 
then;  inspections  were  infrequent  and  they  were  not  severe.  It  is 
more  trouble  and  it  takes  more  time  to  inspect  the  hose  now  than  the 
entire  job  took  when  I  commenced.  There  never  was  any  expecta- 
tion of  trying  the  pumps  or  inspecting  the  hose. 

The  Secretary.  Did  they  overhaul  the  rudder  chains  when  they 
inspected  the  vessels,  Capt.  Blair? 

Capt.  Blair.  No;  inspections  were  very  lenient.  They  became 
gradually  more  rigid  and  careful.  We  had  no  fire  pumps  in  those 
days  at  all.  They  had  hand  pumps  that  would  not  throw.  Now 
they  have  steam  pumps  and  hand  pumps  in  addition.  I  nnd  it  a 
great  convenience  to  have  that  pump  there  all  the  time,  a  convenience 
supplying  water  all  over  the  boat. 

We  realized  that  in  practice  when  a  fire  starts  it  would  probably 
be  in  the  cargo.  Not  only  by  our  regular  inspections  but  by  our 
frequent  inspections  now  our  boats  are  kept  pretty  near  the  scratch. 
We  prevent  fire  from  taking  place  in  the  nrst  instance  by  protecting 
the  woodwork  exposed  to  the  heat,  around  the  chimneys,  in  the 
kitchen,  and  the  galleys.  The  oil  lockers  are  all  cared  for.  Those 
things  are  looked  after.  Besides  the  frequent  inspections  are  the 
weeSy  fire  drills.  I  thought  when  that  was  ordered  in  the  first 
place  it  was  putting  it  to  us  pretty  strong,  but  I  tell  jou  I  am  an 
enthusiastic  convert  to  it.  I  do  not  know  of  any  one  thing  that  has 
added  so  much  to  our  safety  as  the  fire  driU.  I  am  as  much  an 
enthusiast  on  that  subject  as  the  men  who  first  suggested  it. 

Fire  Chief  Croker  spoke  of  one  thing  that  I  understand.  He  went 
out  to  sea  with  that  man  and  he  spoke  of  the  condition  those  fellows 
were  in.  We  all  have  that  to  contend  with,  and  this  is  where  the 
fire  drill  comes  in  right.  Just  as  soon  as  they  are  straightened  up, 
the  first  day  you  leave  port,  when  they  know  what  you  are  talking 
about,  we  give  aU  hands  a  good  drill.     I  am  surprisedf  at  the  interest 


49 

they  take  in  it.     I  am  highly  gratified  with  it.     I  am  so  pleased  with 
it  all  that  I  was  not  at  all  surprised  when  this  new  regulation  about  the 

Frinkler  system  reached  me  just  the  day  before  I  started,  because 
think  it  will  mean  the  cure  of  the  only  real  danger  we  have  left, 
that  of  the  fire  starting  in  the  cargo.  It  will  take  care  of  that  very 
nicely  and  it  can  be  done  without  having  a  very  material  effect  on 
our  draft.  We  can  not  stand  much  increase  in  draft.  Our  steam- 
boats between  St.  Louis  and  St.  Paul  draw  3^  feet.  During  1910, 
which  was  a  favorable,  warm  summer,  when  everybody  wanted  to 
go,  we  did  not  have  a  boat  that  was  able  to  go  to  St.  Paul.  We  had 
their  officers  hired  and  we  had  to  pay  them,  masters,  engineers,  pilots, 
mates,  and  pursers,  and  you  can  imagine  how  much  that  idle  summer 
put  us  in  the  hole.  The  following  season,  1911,  one  of  our  boats,  the 
Quincy,  did  not  get  there  at  all.  One  of  the  others  got  through  all 
but  two  trips.  She  sank  once  and  lost  a  little  time.  Fortunately, 
there  was  not  enough  water  in  the  river  to  sink  very  bad.  We  did 
not  have  to  send  for  a  diver.  Every  weight  that  we  put  on  the  boat 
in  the  water  increases  her  depth.  Our  danger  lies  in  the  bottom. 
If  the  mates  will  keep  her  off  the  bottom  and  the  pilots  off  the  banks 
we  are  all  right. 

The  Secretary.  We  did  not  know  we  were  to  have  a  humorist 
with  us  to-day. 

Capt.  Blair.  I  am  talking  things  over  because  we  Tiave  these 
troubles.  The  fire  risk  has  been  so  slight  and  the  sinking  and  trouble 
from  snags  are  so  frequent  that  we  are  looking  down  below  there  for 
trouble  rather  than  anywhere  else.  But  we  do  feel  that  this  matter 
of  fire  does  affect  us  no  matter  where  it  occurs  because  if  an  accident 
occurs  anywhere  it  is  in  our  papers  the  next  morning  and  we  get 
punished  along  with  the  rest  oi  the  business.  I  have  always  been  so 
glad  that  at  the  dawn  of  history,  the  start  of  navigation,  the  earliest 
navigator,  our  esteemed  ancestor,  Capt.  Noah,  did  not  set  his  boat 
on  fire  and  sell  out  to  the  insurance  companies. 

The  Secretary.  Is  Mr.  LaDow  in  the  room  ?  * 

Mr.  LaDow.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  LaDow,  I  think  you  can  tell  us  something 
about  the  furniture  risk  in  this  matter. 

STATEMENT    OF    MR.    ROBERT    V.    LaDOW,    OF    THE    DAHLSTROM 
METALLIC  DOOR  CO.  (OF  JAMESTOWN,  N.  Y.),  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Secretary,  I  have  nothing  to  do  with  furniture.  Our  company 
manufactures  hollow  metal  doors  and  trim.  I  think  there  is  a  gentle- 
man here  who  represents  a  metal-furniture  company. 

The  Secretary.  We  will  give  him  a  chance  next.  If  you  have 
anything  to  tell  us  about  doors,  let  us  hear  it. 

Mr.  LaDow.  Hollow  metal  doors  were  placed  on  the  market  only 
after  metal-covered  doors  had  been  given  a  thorough  test  and  failed 
of  their  purpose.  It  had  been  the  experience  not  only  that  the  metal- 
covered  doors  did  not  furnish  adequate  protection  in  case  of  fire,  but 
also  that  in  many  places  they  were  not  refined  enough  for  use;  while 
on  the  other  hand,  Dahlstrom  hollow  metal  doors  have  withstood 
several  severe  fire  tests  in  buildings  in  which  they  have  been  installed. 
In  no  instance  have  the  Dahlstrom  doors  failed  to  confine  the  fire  to 


50 

the  room  in  which  it  started.  In  appearance  they  have  no  superior 
in  any  material.  They  were,  of  course,  designed  in  the  first  place  to 
be  used  in  buildings,  but  soon  found  use  in  railroad  cars,  and  not 
only  this  Government  but  also  England  has  recognized  their 
worth  for  use  in  shipbuilding  as  well.  Our  doors  were  used  exten- 
sively in  the  English  ships  Acquitaniay  Laconia,  and  Carmania,  and 
it  is  safe  to  assume  that  their  use  will  be  gradually  extended  to  all  of 
the  better  class  of  passenger  ships  of  English  registry.  It  is  plainly 
evident  that  fire  is  a  greater  menace  on  sea  than  on  land,  and  for 
that  reason  every  safeguard  should  be  furnished  against  this  danger. 

The  Secretary.  Have  you  furnished  them  to  the  Navy  ? 

Mr.  LaDow.  Yes,  sir;  some  of  the  battleships  that  are  completely 
or  in  part  equipped  with  our  work,  are  the  Utah,  Florida,  Texas,  New 
York,  Nevada,  OJclaJioma,  and  possibly  others  I  can  not  name  now. 
We  have  also  installed  work  in  some  of  the  torpedo  boats  for  the 
Navy.  We  furnished  the  metal  joiner  work  now  being  installed  in 
two  lightships  at  Wilmington  for  the  Lighthouse  Service.  At  the 
present  time  we  have  the  contract  for  furnishing  the  hollow  metal 
joiner  doors  for  the  battleship  Mississippi.  In  addition  to  the  doors 
furnished  for  the  United  States  Navy  we  also  equipped  the  Argentine 
battleships  Moreno  and  Rivadavia  throughout  (now,  we  understand, 
acquired  by  Japan)  with  metal  joiner  doors  and  frames.  I  think 
Mr.  Bennett,  of  the  Fore  River  Co.,  could  say  something  about  the 
installation  of  our  work  in  ships  built  by  his  company  for  the  Navy. 

Mr.  Bennett.  I  should  say  that  they  were  specified  by  the  Navy 
Department,  and  we  were  forced  to  put  them  in. 

Mr.  LaDow.  The  Navy  Department  has  specified  hollow  metal 
doors  for  battleships  after  devoting  much  study  to  the  best  methods 
of  construction  and  equipment,  not  only  against  accidental  fires,  but 
also  to  lessen  the  liability  of  flying  wood  splinters  in  times  of  action, 
and  this  careful  study  has  resulted  in  the  adoption  of  those  features 
which  are  now  considered  as  standard  in  battleship  construction.  This 
indorsement  by  the  Navy  Department  should  be  considered  as  suffi- 
cient reason  for  adopting  them  in  the  construction  of  sliips  for  pas- 
senger service.  Not  only  is  this  method  of  construction  adaptable 
for  doors  and  frames  but  also  for  partitions,  berths,  and  other  equip- 
ment as  well;  while  the  tin-clad  wood  doors  are  unsightly,  and  sub- 
ject to  the  strain  of  contraction  and  expansion  of  the  wood  caused 
by  atmospheric  changes. 

In  regard  to  hollow  metal  doors  a  word  of  caution  may  not  be  out 
of  place  here  as  there  are  good,  bad,  and  indifferent  workmanship  in 
all  lines  and  there  is  no  exception  in  the  hollow-metal  industry;  but 
the  Dahlstrom  Metallic  Door  Co.'s  products  stand  to-day,  and  I 
hope  always  will  stand,  as  an  example  of  the  best  that  can  be  pro- 
duced. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Ackerson,  will  you  tell  us  about  this  subject  ? 

Mr.  Ackerson.  In  battleships  we  do  not  have  wooden  doors; 
whether  we  specify  the  Dahlstrom  I  very  much  doubt.  We  require 
steel  doors. 

The  Secretary.  Tell  us  very  frankly  what  you  can  about  this 
whole  question  of  protection. 


51 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  JAMES  L.  ACKERSON,  NAVAL  CONSTRUCTOR, 
NAVY  DEPARTMENT,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  we  do  all  that  has  been  suggested 
except  to  install  automatic  sprinklers.  We  have  no  automatic 
sprinklers  and  it  is  possibly  because  we  are  not  sufficiently  famiUar 
with  their  merits.  We  are  investigating  them.  We  depend  possibly 
more  upon  inflammability  of  material  used  and  in  the  inspection 
of  the  vessel  while  in  service  than  we  do  upon  the  actual  fire-fighting 
facilities.  We  have  the  usual  water  systems.  We  have  carbon 
dioxide  systems  for  storerooms  adjacent  to  fuel-oil  compartments. 
We  have  'foam  fire  extinguishing  for  fire  rooms,  paint  rooms,  and 
various  spaces  in  which  there  may  be  fuel-oil  fires.  We  exercise 
the  greatest  care  in  all  electric  installations  throughout  the  ship, 
particularly  in  spaces  in  which  ammunition  is  stowed  or  handled. 
Otherwise  we  make  no  special  endeavor  to  keep  away  from  fire 
troubles. 

The  Secretary.    Except  by  builchng  a  ship  that  w^ill  not  burn  ? 

Mr.  AcKERSON.  Right.  We  do  not  have  to  contend  with  pas- 
sengers, of  course,  to  the  extent  that  passenger-carrying  fines  do; 
nor  do  we  have  the  inflammable  cargo  to  contend  with,  except 
ammunition,  and  that  of  course  is  in  hermetically  sealed  spaces. 
It  is  inspected  dail}',  sometimes  two  or  three  times  a  day,  and  in 
some  ships  it  is  automatically  refrigerated.  I  do  not  think  the  con- 
ditions on  board  ships  in  the  Nav}'  have  much  in  common  with 
merchant  vessels. 

The  Secretary.  Thank  you  ver}'  much. 

Mr.  Furuseth,  you  have  been  sitting  here  very  patiently  all  day 
long. 

STATEMENT    OF   MR.    ANDREW   FURUSETH,    PRESIDENT   OF   THE 
SEAMEN'S  UNION,  SAN  FRANCISCO,  CAL. 

Mr.  Secretary,  I  have  been  very  much  interested  in  fistening  to*  the 
talk  on  material  and  the  means  to  avoid  fire.  Three  or  four  of  the 
speakers  have  mentioned  another  phase  of  it  that  I  know  more  about 
than  I  do  about  the  other  means.  I  think  that  Capt.  McGray  gave 
the  real  facts  when  he  said  that  it  is  the  cargo  that  bums  more  than 
the  vessel.  I  have  been  in  three  or  four  fires  on  shipboard  myself, 
and  it  was  always  the  cargo.  I  know  that  what  saved  us  in  the  cases 
in  which  I  was  involved  was  the  fact  that  we  had  on  board  a  sufficient 
number — that  is,  a  reasonable  number — of.  skilled  men  who  knew  just 
what  to  do  and  who  were  able  and  had  the  courage  to  obey  the  orders 
that  were  issued.  I  had  one  particularly  interesting  experience  with 
a  fire  on  a  vessel  going  from  San  Francisco  to  Nushagak,  Alaska. 
We  had  about  250  people  aboard,  all  fishermen  and  Chinese,  who 
were  going  up  there  for  the  purpose  of  putting  up  salmon.  The  hold 
of  the  vessel  was  full  of  inflammable  stuff,  and  some  of  it  would  ignite 
of  its  own  accord  by  rubbing  against  each  other.  We  had  a  lot  of 
acids  on  board,  and  those  we  nad  on  deck,  in  big  drums.  That  is  the 
usu^  cargo  of  salmon  fishermen.  Coming  near  our  destination  in 
the  Bering  Sea  we  found  smoke  coming  from  the  hold.  It  was  bad 
weather.  We  opened  up  the  hatches  and  dug  ourselves  through 
until  we  got  to  the  fire  and  then  extinguished  it.  We  had  a  big 
crew  on  the  vessel  just  at  that  time,  fishermen,  of  course,  and  they 


52 

are  all  seamen — they  were  in  that  case  anyway.  We  could  have  done 
it  with  the  ordinary  crew  also. 

The  best  kind  of  implements  to  prevent  fire  are  none  too  good, 
but  there  is  no  way  to  prevent  it  altogether.  The  best  way  of 
building  a  vessel  so  that  it  will  withstand  fire  is  none  too  good,  but 
a  fireproof  vessel  does  not  exist,  and  I  do  not  suppose  she  ever  will 
be  built.  If  she  could  be  built,  the  man-of-iwars  would  be  of  that  kind. 
There  are  not  any  of  them  that  would  not  burn  after  all  in  some 
way  or  another. 

The  next  proposition  is  to  have  somebody  on  board  the  vessel 
that  can  handle  the  fire  apparatus  when  the  fii'e  begins;  first  to 
catch  it  in  its  first  and  early  stages,  and  in  order  to  do  that  there  must 
be  a  sufficient  number  of  men  on  deck  all  the  time — on  watch,  so 
as  to  keep  the  vessel  under  constant  inspection,  as  you  call  it  here.  If 
you  do  that,  you  will  discover  the  fire  pretty  nearly  as  quickly  as 
the  automatic  sprinkler  system  will ;  not  if  it  is  in  the  hold,  of  course ; 
in  the  cargo  you  will  not,  but  anywhere  else  you  will. 

The  next  proposition  is  that  when  you  have  the  knowledge  that 
there  is  a  fire  is  to  have  the  men  that  know  how  to  go  to  work  and 
extinguish  it.  For  that  purpose  men  are  needed  who  have  the  skill 
and  the  courage — skill  to  do  things  that  are  necessary  to  be  done, 
and  courage  to  do  it  at  their  own  risk.  Now,  of  course,  that  is 
manifestly  impossible  in  some  of  our  vessels,  a  large  number  of  our 
vessels,  not  on  the  rivers  nor  to  a  very  large  extent  on  the  bays, 
but  on  the  ocean  and  coastwise.  We  have  a  condition  in  which  a 
large  part  of  the  men  have  no  conception  of  what  the  captain  or 
the  engineer  says  to  them  in  case  of  an  emergency.  That  is  probably 
one  of  the  most  important  things  to  consider  with  reference  to  the 
human  element  referred  to  here  by  Mr.  Taylor,  I  think. 

With  the  best  kind  of  appliances  that  you  have  applied  to  the  new 
vessels,  after  thorough  investigation  as  to  what  is  the  practical  thing 
to  do  with  the  new  vessel,  the  next  proposition  is  what  about  the  old. 
If  ihej  are  permitted  to  go,  they  will  have  a  great  advantage  over 
the  new  vessels,  because  the  public  as  a  general  proposition  does 
not  know  which  vessel  is  good  and  which  vessel  is  bad.  The  people 
see  that  inspection  certificate — if  they  see  anything  at  all  they  see 
that — and  they  say,  ''Uncle  Sam  takes  care  of  that,"  and  take  chances 
accordingly.  Those  vessels  which  are  poorly  equipped  and  poorly 
manned  give  the  reputation  to  those  which  are  well  equipped  and 
well  manned,  and  endangers  all  of  them.  And  those  are  the  people 
that  are  most  important  to  deal  with.  Wherever  it  is  possible  to 
make  the  old  vessels  fit  or  put  in  the  things  on  the  old  vessel  or 
change  the  old  vessel  to  correspond  with  the  new  vessel,  in  the 
interest  both  of  the  good  vessel  and  of  the  traveling  pubUc,  that 
ought  to  be  done. 

Now  there  is  one  more  thought  that  I  want  to  call  to  your  attention. 
Where  there  is  a  fire  on  board  a  vessel  there  are  two  things  that  are 
especially  necessary  if  you  could  have  it  done.  One  is  to  have  a 
system  of  caU  from  the  bridge  to  the  crew's  quarters.  One-half  of 
the  crew  being  on  deck,  some  of  them,  if  it  is  a  small  boat,  will  have 
to  go  to  call  those  who  are  below.  You  can  spare  nobody.  It 
takes  up  some  time,  and  if  there  were  a  system  of  caDs  from  the  bridge 
to  the  crew's  quarters  so  that  you  could  arouse  the  crew  without 
arousing  anybody  else  it  would  be  a  great  good.     More  than  one-half 


53 

of  the  fires  that  occur  on  board  the  vessel  are  never  known  to  the 
passengers.  We  never  let  them  know  anything  about  it,  nor  is  it 
reported  to  the  inspectors  when  the  vessel  comes  in.  No  serious 
harm  being  done,  why  make  a  fuss  ? 

There  is  another  call  bell  that  ought  to  be  on  board  passenger 
vessels.  There  should  be  some  system  by  which  the  officer  on  the 
bridge  can  caU  every  stateroom  where  the  passengers  are;  that  is, 
press  a  button  and  make  enough  of  a  noise  to  get  the  people  who  are 
in  there  to  come  out  when  it  is  really  necessary  that  they  should 
come  out.  That  applies  with  equal  force  to  a  collision  and  to  a  fire. 
Outside  of  that  I  do  not  see  what  else  you  can  do  except  take  the 
chances.     We  have  always  taken  them. 

In  conclusion  I  would  say  this,  that  there  is  very  much  in  the  state- 
ment of  the  gentleman  from  Iowa  that  vessels  that  are  not  making 
very  much  money  somehow  or  other  are  more  subject  to  fire  than 
other  vessels,  particularly  if  they  are  fairly  well  insured.  There  is 
not  any  doubt  about  that.  It  went  so  far  in  that  matter  that  Joseph 
Chamberlain  said  about  safety — I  think  I  can  quote  just  about 
what  he  said — -"  the  shipowner  gets  the  value  of  his  vessel  back,  and 
sometimes  more.  The  owner  of  the  cargo  often  gets  more  than  the 
value  of  the  cargo  back,  and  the  insurance  people  make  money  on 
the  premium."  The  more  fires,  the  higher  the  premium  and  the 
more  money  they  make.  So  there  is  more  truth  than  poetry  in  that 
sizing  up  of  the  situation.  I  do  not  think  the  men  who  own  ships, 
Mr.  Secretary,  are  any  more  immune  from  temptation  than  men 
who  own  stores.  The  best  insurance  against  fire  is  a  skilled  crew 
of  real  seamen.  They  can  put  out  a  fire  when  there  is  yet  time  and 
they  can  tell  aU  about  it  later  if  there  is  something  mysterious  about 
it.  They  are  likely  to  have  pretty  good  judgment  about  causes  and 
this  kind  of  men  are  not  hired  when  the  vessel  is  to  be  sold  to  the 
insurance. 

The  Secretary.  Thank  you  very  much,  Mr.  Furuseth. 

Gentlemen,  I  have  not  tried  to  go  by  a  Hst.  I  have  tried  to  give 
everybody  a  chance.  If  there  is  anyone  who  desires  to  make  a 
statement,  I  shall  be  very  glad  to  have  him  do  so.  (After  a  pause.) 
I  wish  Mr.  Newman  would  make  a  statement. 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.  T.  F.  NEWMAN,  OF  THE  C.  &  B.  TRANSIT  CO., 

CLEVELAND,  OHIO. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  I  have  been  very  much  interested  in 
the  discussions  to-day.  I  believe  that  we  are  on  the  right  track. 
This  committee  which  I  hope  will  be  appointed  wiU  find  a  good  field. 
There  is  no  question  about  that.  And  I  say  that  from  our  standpoint 
we  will  cooperate  with  them  in  every  way. 

The  Secretary.  Thank  you  very  much. 

Mr.  Goodrich.  I  think  the  call  beU  from  the  bridge  to  the  crew's 
quarters  is  in  the  regulations,  is  it  not,  Gen.  Uhler  ? 

Gen.  Uhler.  Not  from  the  bridge. 

The  Secretary.  The  vessel  on  which  I  was  10  days  ago  had  a  fire 
at  5  minutes  past  6  in  the  morning.  There  was  no  call  to  the  crew's 
quarters  and  they  had  to  detach  a  man  to  send  them  up. 


54 

STATEMENT  OF  MR.   PAUL   G.   BROCK,   OF  THE   ART  METAL  CON- 
STRUCTION CO.,  WASHINGTON,  D.  C. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  nothing  has  been  said  of  steel  furni- 
ture.    It  has  been  touched  on  a  little  and  passed  over  quickly 

The  Secretary.  That  is  what  fire  does  with  it. 

Mr.  Brock  (continuing).  Especially  by  the  owners  and  shipyard 
people.  It  has  been  criticized.  Mr.  Taylor,  I  think,  criticized  metal 
furniture  as  being  excessively  heavy.  Such  is  not  proven  by  facts. 
Some  years  ago  we  requested  the  Navy  Department's  permission  to 
design  furniture  for  battleships.  Their  first  question  was,  ^^How 
much  would  it  weigh?"  The  wood  equivalent  of  the  first  experi- 
mental piece  weighed  150  pounds  and  our  article  weighed  495.  They 
immediately  said,  ^^That  will  not  do."  We  started  to  work,  realizing 
that  we  had  to  meet  that  condition,  with  the  result  that  we  have  been 
able  to  furnish  steel  furniture  lighter  than  its  equivalent  in  wood;  not 
only  that,  but  steel  furniture  that  will  be  so  strong  as  to  withstand 
the  vibration  of  the  heavy  gunfire.  We  offer  to  deal  with  the  naval 
architects  and  the  shipyards  in  developing  steel  superstructures. 
They  will  not  be  obligated  in  any  way  if  they  wiU  accept  our  offer. 
We  hope  you  will  permit  us  to  confer  with  this  committee  if  it  is 
organized.  We  would  like  to  show  them  how  this  can  be  built,  how 
much  it  wiU  cost,  and  its  weight. 

We  have  the  actual  knowledge  of  the  fabrication  of  light  sheet  steel 
and  of  the  methods  of  folding,  reinforcing,  bending,  etc.,  so  as  to  get 
the  maximum  strength  out  of  the  minimum  weight.  Shipbuilders 
are  accustomed  to  dealing  with  steel  plates  and  beams.  Our  business 
deals  entirely  with  sheets.  We  know  how  to  handle  sheets,  and  we 
are  willing  and  only  too  glad,  if  given  the  opportunity  to  deal  with  the 
naval  architects  and  with  your  committee,  to  give  you  an  absolutely 
fireproof  superstructure— one  that  wiU  not  burn. 

The  Secretary.  Do  you  feel  that  you  can  furnish  steel  construction 
which  will  correspond  in  weight  substantially  to  wood  ? 

Mr.  Brock.  We  have  done  it  in  furniture,  and  we  feel  that  we  can 
do  it  in  the  housing  and  partition  work.  Anyhow,  we  should  like  to 
try  it. 

The  Secretary.  That  is  a  laudible  ambition. 

Mr.  Myrick.  How  much  more  does  your  steel  furniture  cost? 

Mr.  Brock.  At  the  present  market,  I  think  it  is  cheaper  than  wood. 

Mr.  FuRUSETH.  Lighter,  stronger,  and  cheaper — that  settles  it; 
you  wiU  get  it. 

Mr.  Brock.  It  has  gone  through  the  experimental  stage,  and  now 
they  are  buying  it  very  cheaply.  We  have  had  the  experience,  we 
have  the  machmes,  and  we  have  the  dies;  and  we  can  turn  it  out 
cheaper  than  when  in  the  experimental  stage. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Brock,  what  do  vou  mean  to  cover  under  the 
head  of  "furniture?"  Not  merely  such  furniture  as  applies  to  an 
office,  I  suppose.  You  would  cover  such  matters  as  shelving,  cabi- 
nets, etc.,  would  you  not? 

Mr.  Brock.  The  berths,  the  drawers,  the  mess  tables,  the  equip- 
ment in  the  kitchen,  the  pulpit  for  the  minister  (they  have  a  chapel 
on  some  of  the  naval  ships,  and  have  a  very  small  folding  pulpit  lor 
the  minister),  etc. 

The  Secretary.  And  shelving^ 


55 

Mr.  Brock.  Yes.  Everything,  I  believe,  within  the  bulkheads, 
the  structural  bulkheads.  The  entire  furniture  equipment  is  of  steel 
on  the  Cedar.  This  ship  you  must  know  was  designed  by  the  naval 
architect  of  the  Department  of  Commerce. 

The  Secretary.  Why  did  you  do  that,  Mr.  Gillette  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  For  the  sake  of  cleanliness,  mostly. 

The  Secretary.  Did  you  take  into  account  the  weight  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  Yes,  sir. 

The  Secretary.  How  did  you  find  it  as  to  weight  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  About  20  per  cent  heavier  than  wood. 

The  Secretary.  You  do  not  know  about  the  price  ? 

Mr.  Gillette.  I  do  not  know. 

Mr.  Brock.  I  am  convinced  that  our  prices  are  less  than  those  of 
wood.  Furthermore,  I  think  in  figuring  a  20  per  cent  excess  of  weight, 
that  is  rather  large. 

The  Secretary.  There  are  a  great  many  little  bolts,  clips,  etc., 
which  must  be  taken  into  account.  On  one  battleship  there  are 
59,000  pounds  of  wood  and  50,000  pounds  of  steel. 

Mr.  DoBSON.  We  built. a  Russian  battleship,  also  a  cruiser  for  the 
Russian  Government.  The  cruiser  was  smik  by  the  Japanese,  and 
she  laid  on  the  bottom  for  several  months.  Tnis  vessel  was  fitted 
with  metal  furniture.  She  was  raised  by  the  Japanese  and  added  to 
their  navy,  the  metal  furniture  made  by  Mr.  Brock's  firm  being  found 
in  excellent  condition  and  not  corroded. 

^ir.  Brock.  One  was  18  months  under  water  and  the  other  22. 

Mr.  Berry.  It  seems  to  me  like  a  long  jump  from  metal  furniture 
to  an  entire  ship.  It  is  well  to  consider  carefuUy  the  statement  that 
a  metal  structure  can  be  built  as  light  as  a  wood  structure  in  all  cases. 

Mr.  Brock.  Mr.  Chairman,  I  said  we  should  like  to  try  it. 

Mr.  Berry.  There  is  an  intermediate  step  in  the  steel  passenger 
coach.  In  that  case  the  weight  of  the  steel  coach  has  in  all  cases 
largely  exceeded  the  weight  of  the  old  wooden  coach,  and  for  that 
reason  I  question  the  statement. 

Mr.  Brock.  The  more  weight  there  is  on  the  rails,  the  safer  the 
coach. 

The  Secretary.  Is  not  that  because  they  put  in  a  very  heavy  plate 
girder  the  entire  length  of  the  car,  which  does  not  exist  in  a  wooden 
coach  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  I  was  considering  the  bodies  only. 

Mr.  Brock.  That  is  from  the  standpoint  of  safety.  A  certain 
railroad  president  traveled  in  a  car  with  a  6-inch  armor-plate  floor, 
so  if  his  car  hit  anything  else  it  would  go  through  it.  We  do  not  want 
the  naval  architect  and  the  shipbuilder  to  judge  us  before  we  are 
heard. 

The  Secretary.  We  are  all  agreed  as  to  that,  Mr.  Brock.  I  think 
this  committee  can  be  relied  upon  to  give  you  a  fair  hearing. 

Have  you  anything  further  to  say,  Mr.  Berry  ? 

Mr.  Berry.  No;  I  believe  that  is  aU. 

Mr.  Brock.  The  problem  of  fire  protection  in  connection  with 
public  conveyances,  as  well  as  the  subject  of  fire  protection  in  build- 
ings, has  consumed,  during  the  past  few  years,  the  almost  imdivided 
attention  of  architects,  engineers,  and  manufacturers.  Railroads 
have  recognized  the  value  of  steel  in  the  construction  of  passenger 


56 

coaches,  und,  at  the  present  time,  on  nearly  all  of  our  principal  rail- 
roc  ds  the  old-time  wooden  and  very  highly  combustible  coach  is  fast 
becoming  extinct.  The  reason  for  this  is  that  through  the  use  of  the 
steel  coach  the  loss  of  life  has  become  greatly  reduced.  Thereby  this 
not  only  reflects  back  on  the  railroad  as  a  very  great  advertising 
feature,  but  also  is  proving  profitable  in  the  elimination  of  claims  for 
death  and  disability.  In  all  our  large  cities  ordinances  have  been 
passed  which  make  it  imperative  to  construct  buildings  within  cer- 
tain 2 ones  of  absolutely  noninflammable  materials.  However  fire- 
proof an  office  building  may  be  constructed,  it  avaUs  little  if  the 
furnishings  and  the  office  appliances,  such  as  filing  cabinets,  desks, 
bookcases,  etc.,  are  not  also  made  of  noninflammable  materials.  It 
is  quite  evident  that  a  fire  can  not  exist  where  there  is  nothing  to 
burn.  So  much  has  been  done  to  protect  life  and  property  on  shore 
that  it  seems  rather  deplorable  that  the  question  of  the  same  pro- 
tection on  the  high  seas  has  so  long  been  overlooked.  It  is  apparent 
that  the  reason  for  avoiding  the  use  of  steel  as  a  fire  retardant  m  ship 
construction  is  because  it  has  been  believed  that  the  weight  would 
be  excessive;  also  that  the  cost  would  be  prohibitive.  I  will  state 
that  neither  of  the  above  suppositions  is  true,  but  I  hope  to  explain 
in  detail  later. 

A  few  years  back  it  was  deemed  advisable  by  the  Russian  Gov- 
ernment to  replace  the  old  t3rpe  of  wood  '^joiner  work"  with  steel. 
Three  ships  were  therefore  equipped  with  metal  furniture,  and  in 
those  days  the  problem  of  weight  had  not  been  given  the  careful 
study  as  at  the  present  time,  but,  nevertheless,  it  was  realized  that 
steel  was  incombustible;  also  that  the  splintering  of  woodwork  when 
the  ship  was  in  action  would  be  eliminated.  As  a  matter  of  interest, 
the  ships  equipped  with  metal  furniture  were  sunk  in  action  by  the 
Japanese  and  after  being  immersed  for  a  period  of  two  years  were 
raised  by  them  and  the  furniture  which  was  made  of  steel  was  found 
to  be  completely  intact.  It  had  been  completely  protected  by  the 
very  fine  quality  of  baked  enamel  finish  which  is  to-day  applied  to 
this  product.  This  shows  clearly  that^teel  is  not  subject  to  corrosion 
even  though  immersed  in  salt  water,  if  it  is  properly  protected.  This 
fact  disproves  claims  which,  without  doubt,  will  be  made  by  those 
opposed  to  the  use  of  steel  for  this  purpose  because  of  selfish  com- 
mercial reasons.  Nevertheless,  we  can  guarantee  that  our  process  of 
baked  enamel  finish  has  withstood  the  test  of  time.  All  that  has 
been  done  by  our  railroads,  by  our  Federal,  State,  and  municipal 
governments  in  the  passing  of  ordinances  to  protect  life  and  prop- 
erty against  fire  on  land  is  a  decided  step  in  the  advance  of  modern 
civilization. 

While  much  thought  has  been  given  the  subject  of  fire  protection 
on  board  ship,  we  believe  that  at  the  present  time  little  has  been 
done.  A  ship  may  be  built  of  steel,  it  may  have  steel  cross  and 
longitudinal  bulkheads,  but  if  the  superstructure  is  largely  of  wood, 
the  cabin  furniture  is  of  wood,  the  ship  is  not  by  any  means  a  fire- 
resisting  structure.  With  the  development  of  the  modern  steamship 
carrying  yearly  all  over  the  world  thousands  of  souls,  the  need  of 
fire  protection  has  become  imperative. 

The  construction  of  a  fire-preventive  ship  is  not  only  theoretically 
possible,  but  it  i  commercially  practicable.     It  can  be  accomplished 


57 

by  the  substitution  of  steel  for  wood  in  the  construction  of  the  super- 
structure and  the  furnishings  of  the  public  rooms  and  cabins. 

It  has  been  demonstrated  that  two  thin  sheets  of  steel  not  over 
18  gauge  in  thickness,  with  an  intervening  air  chamber  between  and 
the  sheets  laterally  secured  together,  is  a  more  effective  fire  retardant 
than  a  one-half  inch  or  even  a  1-inch  solid  plate  of  steel,  because  the 
uneven  expansion  under  high  temperature  of  the  two  faces  of  the 
solid  plate  forming  a  bulkhead  or  partition  causes  it  to  buckle  and 
open  up  at  the  joints,  whereas  if  the  bulkhead  be  msde  as  above 
described,  the  air  chamber  prevents  the  sheet  on  the  side  away  from 
the  fire  from  becoming  superheated,  with  the  result  that  it  remains 
in  place  and  prevents  the  spread  of  fire.  The  weight  is  practically 
the  same  as  if  made  of  wood  and  the  cabin  framing  or  '^  joiner  work" 
can  be  produced  at  only  a  slight  advance  over  the  cost  of  wooden 
framing.  Double  steel  cab  hi  partitions  may  be  built  with  air  cham- 
bers for  resisting  fire  and  constructed  so  that  they  can  be  easily  fitted 
around  beams,  angles,  or  channels.  The  modern  passenger  ship  with 
its  long  passageways  of  dry  and  highly  varnished  woods,  presents  a 
risk  from  fire  which  is  receiving  serious  consideration  from  naval 
architects.  A  fire  once  started  will  sweep  the  entire  length  of  the 
superstructure  of  a  ship  before  life  boats  can  be  laimched.  Steel 
cabin  doors  may  be  used  in  connection  with  the  steel  cabin  framing 
or  partition  work  so  that  each  room  is  a  unit  in  itself  and  it  would 
be  absolutely  impossible  for  a  fire  to  spread  from  one  cabin  to  an- 
other. Steps  have  already  been  taken  by  some  steamship  lines  for 
the  installation  of  fire-resisting  bulkheads  having  metal  doors.  A 
system  of  this  kind  has  already  been  installed  by  the  Cunard  Com- 
pany in  the  steamship  Carmania  and  the  steamship  Aquatania,  which 
have  both  been  equipped  with  fire-resisting  bulkheads. 

The  present  methods  of  handling  steel  have  made  it  possible  to  pro- 
duce the  most  artistic  and  refined  designs.  Sharp  and  graceful  mold- 
ings are  now  drawn  through  steel  rolls  so  that  architectural  designs 
can  be  followed  in  the  paneling  and  the  decoration  of  dining  saloons, 
cabins,  and  public  rooms.  The  beautiful  gaining  of  the  handsomest 
and  rarest  woods  can  be  so  successfully  imitated  mat  the  most  exact- 
ing connoisseur  can  not  distinguish  between  the  actual  wood  and  the 
steel.  Beautiful  finishes  in  plain  harmonious  colors  like  cream  white, 
French  grays,  blues,  and  mottled  effects  are  possible.  The  manufac- 
ture of  steel  furniture  has  been  so  perfected  that  all  private  cabins 
and  public  rooms  can  be  fitted  out  with  steel  wardrobes,  chests  of 
drawers,  washstands,  etc.,  and  sideboards,  buffets,  dining  tables  for 
public  rooms  are  now  made  of  steel.  This  class  of  work  has  been  suc- 
cessfully installed  on  our  battleships  Utah  and  Florida,  Arkansas  and 
Wyoming,  Nevada  and  OMahoma,  Pennsylvania,  New  York,  and 
Texas;  destroyers  Jarvis,  Downs,  and  Erickson;  cruiser  Sacramento. 
Several  installations  have  been  made  on  ships  for  Argentina,  for 
Englana,  tTapan,  and  Russia.  To  gain  a  complete  and  intimate 
knowledge  oi  exactly  the  possibilities  in  this  particular  type  of  work 
I  would  advise  that  these  ships  be  inspected.  As  before  stated,  the 
installation  of  steel '' joiner  work"  on  ships  is  commercially  possible. 
We  believe,  without  having  studied  the  proposition  in  detail,  that  the 
initial  cost  would  be  slightly  more  than  wood,  but  steel  unlike  wood 
is  not  subject  to  atmospheric  changes  and  therefore  is  more  durable. 
It  will  neither  swell,  shrink,  nor  split,  and  finished  properly  with 


58 

baked  enamels  the  upkeep,  so  far  as  painting  is  concerned,  would  be 
considerably  less  than  it  would  be  if  air-drying  paints  were  used. 
Steel  furniture  made  by  this  company  which  has  been  in  hard  and 
constant  use  for  20  years  is  still  as  good  as  the  day  it  was  installed. 
It  is  evident  that  wooden  furniture  under  the  same  conditions  would 
have  been  replaced  once  or  twice.  You  will  find  that  furniture 
aboard  both  the  battleships  Utah  and  Florida  has  been  installed 
about  7  or  8  years  and  has  successfully  withstood  the  general  wear 
and  tear  encountered  aboard  ship. 

Steel  furniture  is  of  greater  value  in  the  equipment  of  a  ship's 
kitchen,  pantry,  and  scullery,  for  not  only  is  it  a  preventative  of  fire, 
but  when  finished  in  baked  enamels  it  is  more  sanitary,  more  easily 
cleaned  than  any  other  material.  However  well  wooden  fittings  may 
be  cared  for  there  are  always  joints  that  open  up  in  changing  tem- 
peratures and  these  would,  with  any  cracks  which  may  occur  from 
the  splitting  or  warping  of  the  wood,  offer  a  refuge  for  microbes  which 
can  find  no  lodgment  on  steel  furniture. 

You  will  ask,  although  the  superstructure  may  be  completely  fire- 
proof, what  means  will  be  taken  for  the  fireproofing  of  the  cargoes  in 
the  hold  of  the  ship.  I  would  recommend  that  steel  compartments 
be  constructed,  the  size  to  be  determined  after  a  careful  analysis. 
The  partitions  would  run  from  side  to  side  of  the  ship  and  each  parti- 
tion nave  a  sufficiently  wide  doorway  to  allow  the  easy  handling  of 
freight  and  the  doors  to  be  self-closing  in  case  of  fire.  These  partitions 
would  be  similar,  so  far  as  their  function  is  concerned,  to  fire  parti- 
tions in  warehouses.  In  addition  to  this  I  would  recommend  the  use 
of  a  sprinkler  system,  same  as  now  used  in  many  of  our  factories  and 
warehouses,  or  possibly  a  steam  jet  to  work  in  each  compartment 
would  be  more  efficient  than  the  sprinkler  system.  I  would  suggest 
that  structural  members  used  in  the  construction  of  the  partition  in 
the  hold  of  the  ship  be  protected  by  a  proper  thickness  of  asbestos 
which  could  be  covered  with  a  steel  shield  of  thin  gauge  to  protect  it 
against  the  wear  and  tear  which  naturally  would  occur  in  handling 
cargoes.  In  this  way  structural  members  would  be  protected  as  are 
the  columns  in  buildings  by  either  concrete  or  terra-cotta  blocks. 

As  to  the  weight  of  the  steel ' '  joiner  work ' '  which  has  been  furnished 
for  battleships  I  wiU  state  that  Government  specifications  have  given 
the  weight  of  the  various  articles  of  wood  furniture  and  have  stipu- 
lated that  the  metal  furniture  must,  in  every  instance,  be  not  more  in 
weight  than  the  wood  furniture  and  as  much  less  as  possible.  After 
a  careful  analysis  of  several  constructions,  it  has  been  found  that  it 
is  possible  to  construct  metal  furniture  in  such  a  way  that  it  is  less 
in  weight  in  most  instances  than  the  similar  articles  of  wood  furni- 
ture.    This  fact  can  be  borne  out  by  the  following  example: 

Hardwood  weighs,  we  will  say,  3^  pounds  per  board  foot,  while  a 
section  of  a  partition  1  foot  square  made  of  two  thicknesses  of  20- 
gauge  steel,  with  an  air  space  of  1  inch  between  them  and  joined 
together  laterally  through  the  air  space,  will  weigh  about  3i  pounds. 
In  a  battleship  a  certain  portion  of  the  wood  furniture  weighed  59,000 
pounds.  The  same  articles  of  furniture  providing  the  same  accom- 
modations made  of  steel  weighed  only  50,000  pounds,  showing  a  gain 
in  net  weight  of  9,000  pounds. 

The  logical  conclusion  of  this  analysis  is  the  entire  elimination  of 
wood  in  the  fitting  and  furnishing  of  steamships,  and  the  steamship 


59- 

companies  which  follow  this  out  to  its  fullest  extent  will  merit  and 
no  doubt  obtain  their  reward  in  the  increased  patronage  of  the  trav- 
eling public. 

The  Secretary.  Is  there  anybody  else,  Capt.  White  ? 

STATEMENT  OF  CAPT.   GEORGE   A.   WHITE,   ASSISTANT  GENERAL 
MANAGER  HCTDSON  RIVJ3R  DAY  LINE,  NEW  YORK  CITY. 

Mr.  Secretary  and  gentlemen,  I  have  been  familiar  with  the  pas- 
senger steamboat  business  in  this  country  for  a  number  of  years. 
There  are  lots  of  things  that  are  very  desirable  but  the  expense  and 
weight  are  sometimes  prohibitive.  There  are  some  of  the  companies 
that  can  bear  the  expense,  but  there  are  a  lot  of  weak  ones  whose 
only  excuse  for  living  is  that  they  can  do  business  cheaper  than  the 
railroads.     They  can  not  go  on  and  make  more  elaborate  preparation. 

We  welcome  the  idea  of  more  inspection.  The  31  new  inspectors 
we  are  glad  to  hear  of.  When  there  is  a  fire  on  any  boat  we  all  suffer 
from  it,  and  we  want  to  keep  boats  from  having  them. 

I  did  not  intend  to  speak  of  the  Day  Line  but  Mr.  Olcott  was  a 
little  modest  in  what  he  said  about  bringing  up  our  fireproofing. 
From  the  keel  of  the  Washington  Irving  we  are  absolutely  fireproof 
up  to  the  main  deck,  clear  up  to  forward  of  engine  and  boiler  rooms. 
There  is  a  steel  deck  under  tne  galley.  The  bulkheads  and  sides  are 
steel.  Overhead  is  a  wooden  deck,  but  insulated  with  asbestos  cov- 
ered with  sheet  iron.  Farther  aft  partitions  in  the  crew's  quarters 
are  3/16-inch  asbestos  board.  There  is  the  same  construction  over 
the  fireroom  and  engine  span;  the  underside  of  the  deck  is  covered 
with  asbestos  and  sheet  iron;  the  stairs  and  the  soffits  of  the  stairs 
are  covered  with  asbestos  board;  and  the  uptake  or  trunk,  which 
carries  the  transmission  from  the  pilot  house,  is  all  steel. 

About  the  steel  furniture.  We  have  to  give  our  passengers  com- 
fortable seats  going  up  the  river.  They  have  to  sit  eight  or  nine 
hours,  and  they  would  not  stand  for  steel  seats. 

Another  thing;  our  chairs  are  largely  made  of  wicker  work,  and  if 
they  were  thrown  overboard  they  would  hold  up  a  person  fairly  well, 
as  would  a  wooden  chair  or  door.  The  life  preservers  are  placed 
where  anyone  can  reach  them.  They  can  take  those  Hfe  preservers 
and  in  the  tepid,  shallow  water  we  run  in,  be  as  safe  as  though  bath- 
ing on  a  beach.  We  are  always  near  shore  and  generally  in  such 
shoal  water  that  our  light-draft  steamers  can  either  put  a  plank 
ashore  or  are  in  water  of  wading  depth. 

I  do  believe  in  the  drill  and  in  the  fire-fighting  equipment;  we  go 
away  beyond  the  requirements  of  the  Government.  We  have  every- 
thing we  can  think  oi  in  the  way  of  fire  extinguishers  and  more  equip- 
ment than  is  required  in  way  of  hose.  We  have  inspection  every  day 
by  captains.  The  drill  is  every  week,  but  every  day  the  captain  goes 
over  the  boat  and  into  all  these  '' breeders,"  as  Mr.  Croker  calls  them, 
and  sees  that  there  is  no  rubbish  lyin^  around. 

I  know  small  fines  that  have  had  to  give  up  insurance  because  they 
could  not  meet  their  other  expenses  and  come  out  even.  In  the 
short  season  during  which  the  boats  run,  it  is  a  question  whether  they 
can  break  even.  Of  course,  we  are  told  never  to  mention  expenses  in 
coming  to  Washington;  but  I  am  not  speaking  for  myself,  but  for  a 
great  many  small  companies.     It  must  be  borne  in  mind  that  these 


60 

companies  can  not  serve  the  useful  purpose  for  which  they  have 
built  their  boats  if  there  are  too  many  requirements  placed  upon 
them. 

When  we  built  our  steamer  Robert  Fulton  our  president  was  insist- 
ent that  it  be  made  fireproof.  We  tried  out  everything  and  every 
device  we  could  think  of  to  make  it  fireproof ;  but  the  naval  architect 
said,  '^If  you  want  that  boat  to  run  to  Albany  and  make  the  time 
it  will  be  necessary  to  make,  you  can  not  carry  all  that  weight."  So 
we  have  the  minimum  amount  of  inflammable  material  and  the  max- 
imum amount  of  fireproofing  we  can. 

We  have  the  greatest  faith  in  the  Aero  Fire  Alarm  system,  with 
which  a  number  of  our  boats  are  equipped. 

The  Secretary.  There  has  been  reference  made  by  a  number  of 
speakers  to-day  to  the  appointment  of  a  committee.  The  thought 
is  a  very  excellent  one,  I  think;  but  I  should  like  very  much  to  have 
that  committee,  if  you  see  fit  to  direct  the  appointment  of  it,  looked 
upon  perhaps  a  little  differently  from  the  way  committees  are  usually 
looked  upon — not  in  the  sense  of  having  more  work  to  do,  because 
we  are  all  busy  men,  but  in  the  sense  of  its  very  grave  importance 
to  a  great  industry  and  to  the  public.  I  think  it  is  capable  of  being 
a  great  means  of  good;  and  if  that  committee  is  appointed  I  should 
like  to  have  its  members  all  feel  that  in  the  various  services  of  this 
Department  all  we  have  in  the  way  of  experimental  capacity  and 
knowledge  is  at  their  disposal;  and,  therefore,  in  appointing  that 
committee  I  wish  its  members  to  know  that  we  are  here  to  help  them. 
In  fact,  the  greatest  compliment  we  have  had  in  this  Department  in 
the  last  three  years  was  given  us  by  a  writer  in  a  magazine,  who 
spoke  of  it  as  the  ''Department  of  Help."  That  is  the  way  in  which 
I  should  like  it  known. 

Is  it  your  pleasure,  gentlemen,  that  a  committee  shall  be  appointed  ? 
All  in  favor  will  please  signify  by  saying  ''Aye." 

(The  motion  was  adopted  unanimously.) 

The  Secretary  (continuing).  Then  this  would  be  a  suggestion  I 
should  like  to  make:  That  the  committee  should  be  representative 
of  the  industries  here  represented,  both  as  to  the  work  done  and  as 
to  the  localities  in  which  it  is  done;  and  that  there  should  be  two 
representatives  of  this  Department,  merely  in  order  that  the  scien- 
tific work  of  the  Department  and  its  marine  work  may  be  at  the 
committee's  disposal  for  any  experimental  purposes. 

I  should  like  to  have  it  understood  that  through  me  the  committee 
could  call  on  any  other  department  of  the  Government  for  any  in- 
formation they  need.  I  am  sure  that  any  facts  the  Navy  Depart- 
ment and  the  other  marine  departments  have  in  their  possession 
could  be  ascertained  and  that  their  assistance  could  be  had  in  other 
directions. 

This  would  be  my  suggestion  as  to  procedure:  That  the  minutes 
of  to-day  be  written  up  and  submitted  to  each  gentleman  for  his 
alteration.  We  want  to  get  the  real  thought,  not  the  hasty  speech, 
although  I  know  of  none  that  has  been  used.  Then,  if  we  can  find 
the  money,  that  should  be  printed  and  put  into  the  hands  of  the 
gentlemen  who  have  been  here  present  and  of  others  whom  thoy  may 
suggest.  For  example,  Capt.  Blair  might  like  to  have  them  sent  to 
the  members  of  the  St.  Louis  association;  and  Capt.  White  has 
spoken  of  some  who  were  not  able  to  be  here. 


61 

Then  let  the  committee  be  called  together  at  the  most  convenient 
place  and  determine  how  they  can  best  utilize  the  information  which 
has  here  been  brought  out.  There  has  been  a  lot  of  it,  I  think,  to-day, 
of  various  kinds.  Then  that  would  enable  the  committee  to  see 
whether  they  wanted  the  Bureau  of  Standards  to  try  something  out 
for  them;  and  if  it  was  wanted  it  could  be  arraaged.  We  can  have 
tests  made  of  almost  anything — any  kind  of  material.  I  can  arrange 
to  have  the  results  of  the  work  of  the  forest  products  section  placed 
at  the  disposal  of  the  committee.  They  are  doing  things  with  wood 
that  are  almost  like  dreams — such  as  making  silk  dresses  out  of  pine, 
and  other  things  which  would  be  of  greater  interest  to  you  gentlemen. 
I  can  assure  you  of  the  complete  cooperation  of  this  Department  in 
the  broadest  spirit  of  sympathy. 

Now  for  a  general  outline.  I  should  want  to  know,  for  example, 
what  Mr.  Dobson  thought  of  this,  and  Mr.  Magoun  of  that,  and  Mr. 
Gatewood  of  the  other  thing.  I  think  we  can  do  something  here  that 
will  be  very,  very  practical  in  its  final  result.  That  would  be  my 
general  idea,  subject  to  your  approval. 

How  should  this  committee  be  appointed?  Do  you  wish  to  ap- 
point a  committee  to  select  a  committee,  or  shall  I  take  the  liberty 
of  suggesting  to  you  some  names  I  have  here  before  me,  with  the 
understanding  that  you  can  throw  them  all  over  if  you  like  ? 

A  Voice.  I  think  that  is  the  better  way,  Mr.  Secretary. 

The  Secretary.  My  suggestion,  then,  would  be  the  following :  ^Mr. 
Taylor;  Mr.  Kirby;  Mr.  Benns;  Mr.  Newman;  Mr.  Berry;  Mr.  Olcott; 
Mr.  Myrick;  Mr.  Olander,  of  Chicago;  Mr.  Gillette;  and  Dr.  Stratton, 
of  the  Bureau  of  Standards. 

I  name  Dr.  Stratton  with  especial  pleasure  for  the  reason  that  he 
has  commanded  a  vessel.  He  is  a  good,  practical  seaman  as  well  as  a 
scientific  man,  and  therefore  understands  his  subject  on  both  sides. 
Mr.  Gillette  I  need  not  commend  to  you. 

That  is  a  committee  which  represents  Boston,  New  York,  Detroit, 
Washington,  Cleveland,  and  Chicago  as  to  locality.  It  represents 
the  naval  architects,  the  insurance  men,  and  the  operating  compa- 
nies ;  it  represents  labor  and  the  law,  Mr.  Myrick  being  at  least  very 
closely  connected  with  admiralty  law,  as  well  as  the  Department. 

I  should  like  very  much  to  add,  if  Capt.  Blair  will  permit  me,  his 
own  name  as  a  representative  of  the  Mississippi  River  interests. 

Capt.  Blair.  Mr.  Secretary,  it  would  be  far  better,  and  would 
please  me  much  better,  if  you  would  put  down  the  name  of  Capt. 
Henry  W.  Leyhe,  the  president  of  our  association.  St.  Louis  is  his 
home  town  and  he  has  his  home  office  there,  and  he  will  be  active 
and  interested.     He  represents  me. 

The  Secretary.  This  committee  will  be  fairly  representative  of 
the  Lake,  the  Mississippi  River,  the  Hudson  River,  and  the  Sound 
interests,  and  of  the  shipbuilders  and  the  naval  architects.  It  is 
not  exclusive,  however;  it  can  add  the  names  of  others  to  its  mem- 
bership as  it  sees  fit. 

Mr.  Brock.  Mr.  Secretary,  there  is  not  a  friend  of  metal  furniture 
on  that  committee. 

The  Secretary.  Mr.  Brock,  you  are  ^oing  to  live,  are  you  not  ? 
I  am  not  afraid  of  metal  furniture  suftering  while  you  are  alive, 
especially  when  Mr.  Dobson  is  here  to  back  you  up. 


62 

A  Voice.  I  would  suggest  Mi.  Goodrich  because  I  consider  nim  a 
most  advanced  man,  especially  in  the  line  of  fire  protection. 

The  Secretary.  It  will  give  me  pleasure  to  add  his  name. 

The  Same  Voice.  In  the  laboratory  in  Chicago  and  in  the  fire 
department  he  has  been  very  active. 

Mr.  Newman.  I  think  Mr.  Goodrich  should  take  my  place. 

The  Secretary.  I  do  not  think  even  he  would  suggest  that  he 
could  do  that. 

I  do  not  think  this  committee  will  call  for  a  very  serious  amount 
of  time,  but  for  a  thoughtful  amount  of  time,  so  to  speak.  Mr. 
Benns  is  located  here  in  Washington.  It  seems  to  me  it  would  be 
an  excellent  thing  for  this  committee  when  it  meets  to  make  Mr. 
Benns  its  secretary.  He  then  would  be  in  hourly  touch  with  the 
Department  and  with  the  two  members  of  the  committee  from  the 
Department  who  are  on  it,  and  in  that  way  he  could  save,  with  a 
minimum  of  work  for  himself,  a  very  large  amount  for  the  committee, 
and  any  facihty  we  have  would  be  at  his  disposal. 

A  Voice.  Mr.  Secretary,  I  wish  you  would  ask  that  this  commit- 
tee meet  this  afternoon  or  evening.  We  ought  to  have  a  meeting 
to-day.     I  am  sure  I  think  we  could  have  such  a  meeting. 

The  Secretary.  So  many  as  favor  the  appointment  of  the  com- 
mittee suggested,  including  6f  course  Mr.  Goodrich's  name,  the 
inclusion  of  which  is  a  source  of  great  satisfaction  to  me,  wiU  signify 
by  saying  '^Aye.''  (The  motion  was  adopted  unanimously.)  The 
comrnittee  may  be  considered  as  appointed,  and  the  Chair  will  ask 
that  so  many  of  the  members  of  the  committee  as  are  here  present 
meet  immediately  at  the  adjournment  in  this  room. 

Is  there  anythmg  further,  Mr.  Myrick,  which  occurs  to  you  ? 

Mr.  Myrick.  Nothing,  but  this:  I  do  not  express  simply  my 
personal  gratification,  Mr.  Secretary,  at  the  manner  in  which  tnis 
conference  has  been  conducted,  but  I  am  sure  in  what  I  have  to  say 
I  represent  the  opinion  of  every  gentleman  present.  We  are  very 
grateful  to  you  for  bringing  us  together;  very  grateful  to  you  for 
the  admirable  manner  in  which  you  have  conducted  this  conference. 

The  Secretary.  I  thank  you  very  much.  I  have  great  hopes  as 
to  what  may  come  from  this.     I  have  never  been  willing  to  believe, 

fentlemen,  that  we  can  not  do  a  thing  merelv  because  it  has  not 
een  done.  The  history  of  our  country  is  full  of  instances  to  the 
contrary.  I  think  we  can  do  a  great  deal  as  a  result  of  our  meeting. 
I  take  great  pride  in  some  of  our  work  here  because  we  are  trying 
to  do  the  things  which  have  never  been  done.  You  will  notice  my 
handling  this  little  thing  here  [displaying  a  vase].  It  may  seem  a 
trifling  thing  to  you  but  it  means  a  great  deal  to  a  great  many  people. 
Those  of  you  who  have  in  your  homes  beautiful  specimens  of  line 
porcelains  have  nothing  finer  than  this.  There  is  no  lead  in  the 
glaze;  no  workman  is  poisoned  in  the  making  of  this  porcelain. 
There  is  no  imported  material  in  it,  and  yet  the  great  potteries  of 
Sevres  and  Germany  have  nothing  more  beautiful  in  the  way  of 
perfect  work  than  this  little  sample,  which  we  made  here  in  this 
Department.  It  is  just  another  new  American  industry.  It  has 
been  made  out  of  American  materials.  Yet  a  year  ago  it  had  never 
been  done.  I  should  Like  to  see  a  new  motto  in  this  country,  and 
that  is,  ''Americans  can.'' 


63 

T  thank  you  very  heartily  for  coming.  The  committee  will  meet  at 
its  convenience. 

(Thereupon,  at  4.30  o'clock  p.  m.,  the  conference  adjourned  and 
the  committee  appointed  met.) 

At  the  request  of  Mr.  Samuel  Gompers  the  following  telegram  was 
incorporated  in  the  record: 

Chicago,  May  2,  1916. 
lir.  Samuel  Gompers, 

President  American  Federation  of  Labor, 

801  G  St.  NW.,  Wash.,  D.  C. 
Advised  that  hearing  on  Steamboat-Inspection  Service  will  be  held  at  Washington 
to-morrow  at  which  you  will  be  present.  Earnestly  request  that  you  advocate  the 
installation  of  automatic-sprinkler  equipments  on  steamboats  and  other  forms  of 
vessels  that  are  being  considered  at  hearing  mentioned.  Favorable  action  will  be  of 
material  benefit  to  our  members  and  serve  as  one  of  the  greatest  requirements  for  pro- 
tection of  life  and  property.  Will  thank  you  to  advise  me  of  what  developments 
may  arise. 

John  R.  Alpine. 

o 


